@TriforceBun

The first six dungeons were all temples rather than just generic dungeons, and the last dungeon was the "Great Palace", so presumably an old castle that the Royal Family once used.

Also, the newly released Hyrule Encyclopedia apparently has a page comparing the maps of the various games, and it outright confirms that the southwestern portion of AoL's world is where the events of LoZ took place.

Of course the book also makes some other weird claims that throw canonicity into question, though I think we should always question the canonicity of out-of-game information regardless.

Still, the geography comparison maps are kind of interesting: http://zeldauniverse.net/forums/Thread/183385-Timeline-and-other-interesting-tidbits-in-Hyrule-Encyclopedia/?postID=5880650#post5880650

(Side note: Yay that the Hyrule Historia timeline has been retconned slightly to better fit what the games say! Boo that it just moved one game and screwed around with a bunch of other lore that doesn't match the in-game information.)

@kriswright

Lol, I very nearly included a parenthetical in my post clarifying that I wasn't trying to brag or insult with that paragraph, but I thought doing so would invite the unintended implication.

It's weird. I also contend that I value exploration in Zelda more than any other one element, but TWW is probably my least favorite 3D Zelda game, and LoZ is probably my least favorite 2D Zelda game (not counting TFH or the Four Swords duo). I love the exploration in those games, but they rank lower for me because other games in the series do certain things better than others. While I love the exploration aspect in those two games, I'm very much a parts-make-the-whole type person with video games. I think PH has the best puzzles in the series, for example, but it's one of my least favorite Zelda games overall. I think LoZ has the best exploration in the series (apart from BotW), but it's one of my least favorite Zelda games overall. I like a Zelda game that can do everything really well. So if I could get a Zelda game that has great exploration and great dungeons, that would rank above a Zelda for me that just has great exploration. Or put another way, if I had a Zelda game that had above-average exploration and above-average dungeons, I would prefer that to a Zelda game that had great exploration and terrible dungeons (all other things being equal).

So I guess I'm saying I probably don't agree with Anand's theory (or at least don't believe it can be accurately applied to every person), and that I'd be perfectly okay with a Zelda game with great dungeons that are optional or that you can come back to whenever you want while still having other stuff to do in the mean time.

@V_s
I didn't know that this encyclopaedia was a thing! I knew about the art book, but not this.

We're apparently getting a Western release, I'll be all over this.

Back on topic, the reason why exploration in Wind Waker sucks ass is because there really isn't that thrill of discovery. Every square has an island. And most islands can be quickly searched for the one or two secrets they hold. It's fairly formulaic actually.

The only 3D entry worse than WW for exploration would be Skyward Sword.

The weapon degradation system really hasn't bothered me at all like I thought it might. I have a considerable arsenal of weapons of varying strengths and perks, and I can use any one of them at any time and it doesn't matter. They all pretty much get the job done. The point is totally to use them, that's what they're there for! I get a certain amount of satisfaction when I pick up a new melee weapon or shield and it's better than my current worst one, so I can drop my new worst weapon and collectively I get stronger.

It anything, it's only the act of picking up a new item with a full inventory that isn't intuitive. When your inventory is full, and you try to pick up a weapon that's worse than the one you have equipped but better than the worst one in your inventory, swapping one for the other isn't as smooth as you'd want. In general, I think the controller mappings are inefficient in some key ways. For example, D-Pad down to drop item would be a whole lot more useful to me than whistling is.

Shadowlink said:

Back on topic, the reason why exploration in Wind Waker sucks ass is because there really isn't that thrill of discovery. Every square has an island. And most islands can be quickly searched for the one or two secrets they hold. It's fairly formulaic actually.

Yep. You know there's one thing worth seeing in each square, and it's either really important or not very important. It's a pathetic overworld, really.

@TheBigG753
Shadowlink said:f=id=13326&pagenumber=16#503974 said:

@V_s[/ref]

Back on topic, the reason why exploration in Wind Waker sucks ass is because there really isn't that thrill of discovery. Every square has an island. And most islands can be quickly searched for the one or two secrets they hold. It's fairly formulaic actually.

Completely disagree. I absolutely felt that thrill of discovery while playing Wind Waker for the first time and so did my wife. That WAS the appeal of Wind Waker and the reason it's been my favorite Zelda ever since. (I'd also say it outclasses OoT in this department by a mile). Yes, compared to Breath of the Wild, Wind Waker is positively empty. But I consider it the most interesting exploratory Zelda pre-BotW. Or at least a tie with the original Zelda on that score.

Yes, each square only has one island, but to dismiss the game as formulaic on those grounds alone is really weak. Might as well dismiss BotW because there're too many shrines and they're all structured the same. Anyway, there are lots of other things to do out on the ocean - platform battles (which reappear triumphantly in BotW, btw), treasure hunting, submarines, the Ghost Ship, battling those giant Seahats, barrel slaloms, the way the sea would turn choppy during storms, etc. As I mentioned to Kal earlier in the thread, I've always denied this argument that there was nothing to do on the ocean, because I always found lots of great, fun stuff to do. I absolutely loved the sailing in Wind Waker. It was my favorite part of the game. But I do agree that, in light of BotW being so packed with stuff to do, Wind Waker does start to look pretty spare. Up until this point I'd have never demanded the kind of density of individual events we see in BotW because it's just so dense that it's almost too much to ask for. And yet, here it is.

@kriswright

Well to each their own I guess. But IMO if your search process is drastically curtailed (i.e. find the island within the grid, then explore that distinct and specific tiny area), then you aren't really doing all that much in the way of 'discovery'.
Also I think it's a bit erroneous to compare them to the shrines in that fashion, as A) the shrines aren't laid out according to any specifically predictable pattern ala the map grid, and more importantly B) Because whilst many of the shrines are obvious, (like the islands), many more are not. Some are cleverly tucked away with the only clue to their presence being the incessant beeping of the Shiekah Sensor. Others don't even trigger the Shiekah Sensor at all, rather they only appear when you complete the sidequest required to make them appear.

I think Wind Waker *could* have had a greater feeling of discovery for me if it had a more organic map ala Phantom Hourglass where you actually went looking for secret uncharted islands. Whether you stumbled upon them by random exploration, or following up on NPC hints, it just triggered that 'Hey look what I found!" feeling a little bit more than an island you know HAS to exist in a specific area.

Fair point on things like the subs and the ghost ship though. If Wind Waker had more stuff like that it probably would have been better in my eyes. Things like random salom courses and shark attacks or whatever though...ehhh. Diversions really less relevant to exploration IMO.

I support Kris here in that the Ocean of Wind Waker was full of discovery. The grid only served as a way to ensure you hit it all but it was still damn exciting to move from island to island trying to figure out what's next. Nobody is arguing that Wind Waker did discovery BETTER than Breath of the Wild but damn if I didn't personally love that ocean. I had high hopes for the sky in Skyward Sword but it fell short to the Ocean of Hyrule's flood.

I never felt like I was discovering new things in Wind Waker. Everything was laid out in a very logical and inorganic manner, nothing about it felt like a natural place that was lived in, waiting for me to unravel it's mysteries. Not to mention so many of the islands were the same exact thing, just looked a little different. The overworld in Ocarina of Time may have been empty (not as much as people seem to think it was) but at least it felt like an actual place that people lived in.
Ok sure there were things to discover in Wind Waker, random fights that would pop up and such. But I had oodles more fun exploring in Ocarina because it did feel like a real place. Wind Waker reminds me a bit of Binding of Isaac in the way that it has a set grid you explore around. Sure you can have fun in each of those 'rooms' but they rarely give you a unique experience when compared to each other.

@kriswright
Most of those things you mentioned though are just placed into the map and rarely offer meaningful rewards. And typically the ones that do are tied to the story, like the Ghost Ship. Taking down a watchtower to get a Joy Pendant to go with my other 30 Joy Pendants isn't fun, and it just teaches me that they don't hold anything of value.
Storms would have been more interesting if they actually made me change how I sailed around the ocean. Instead they just change how the ocean looks while I continue to sail at my breakneck pace.

@Pokefreak911

I think the 'BIG EMPTY FIELD' criticism that Zero likes to trot out with respect to OoT is a little unfair too. I mean if you want to be really uncharitable, there's not much to be gained from looking for secret holes in Hyrule Field (although two do contain Heart pieces). But there's more than a few Skulltulas scattered about too.
The main counterargument though is that OoT's overworld isn't just Hyrule Field. I know Zero likes to think that but it simply isn't true. Kokiri Forest, the Lost Woods, Hyrule Castle, Lon Lon Ranch, Kakariko Village, Death Mountain, Goron City, Zora's Domain, Gerudo Valley, Lake Hylia...

If you leave all of that out when discussing exploration in Ocarina of Time, you're being manifestly unfair IMO.

Maybe this kind of thing should be a new topic or something? I wanna talk about the game in here!

Is there an easy way to get star fragments? I could use some and I've only ever gotten 2 this whole time...

Speaking of dungeons, or this game's mini-equivalent, I've had a sort of so so experience with the shrines so far. I almost feel like the first few "teaching" ones, but everything I've run into since has either been very simple puzzles, some ok fights, or the kind that have nothing inside ("you have already proven yourself by getting here" yada yada.)

With that said some of the stuff leading up to the "you have already proven yourself" ones was pretty awesome, so maybe it's fine that they have nothing inside.

But the puzzle ones... I guess I want more out of? I'm sure there will be some smarter ones down the line (I've STILL barely gotten out of the first area after the plateau) but so far it's like... walk in, solve within a few minutes, walk out.

@Shadowlink I don't ignore those, I just think they're mostly all linear spokes coming out from a boring hub that don't really offer much exploration either. And they barely connect to each other, the few ways they do are ultimately meaningless.

@Zero

Eh the spoke/hub arrangement doesn't bother me. They're only really 'spokes' in flowchart form anyway. Really there was plenty of stuff to find and they were pretty damn big areas.

...but back to BotW. Regarding the shrines I think they get tougher. Probably as you range further from the plateau. There's a couple of sneaky puzzle ones that I really liked. The twin shrines were pretty neat (although I figured out the solution to those rather quickly), and there's was a star one that really had me scratching my head for a few minutes.

I think the 'You have already proven yourself' ones are actually the best though, purely because of the leadup as you say. Those usually involve a tough challenge or puzzle to get to in and of themselves, and they've been the most enjoyable parts of the game for me.

I've done just under half, and the handful I've left for the moment are the combat tests.

@Mop it up

I've only ever seen the one. I had to chase it all the way to Hyrule Castle too. Kinda nerve racking.

Well, the one I just did had a pretty tough treasure chest to get... in fact I gave up on the treasure after awhile (would have stuck at it but I have to get to bed, work tomorrow) and just finished it. So I guess that was something.

I poured another three hours into this game tonight and it's becoming real clear that I'll never beat this game, haha. Man, it's huge!

It also seems like I've hit a bit of a wall. I've followed the main story as much as I can. I've hit up Kakariko and Hateno Village as well as the stables. I've got the 'champions' shirt and five heart containers. It seems like I'm not powerful enough to succeed in any of the shrines near Hateno and I'm not doing well in the level two cold either. I'm really struggling in the 'test of strength' shrines but I might just be getting ahead of myself by attempting those. It was the first time that I didn't accomplish anything while playing for a few hours. I did head back to the plateau to take down the big stone guy so hopefully that counts for something.

I hope I can get back on the right track next time I play!

@MasterSandman II

If you start towards a Divine Beast of some kind (any of them should do) I think you'll find yourself continually finding new shrines and enemies that will hone your skills and help you overcome your struggles. You may not have any guidance on that from local people but based on where you're at, I would think that Impa would have marked the spots on your map by now.

@Zero

That's the entire purpose of those ones with no puzzles inside. The outside is a puzzle and I think it's pretty cool they designed some like that.

Well, for the no puzzle ones usually so far the outside has been more fighting than puzzling, but sometimes it is a mix.

Man, I played a few hours last night, it was a pretty good session, first some off the way exploring and finding a few shrines, and then I finally ("accidentally", though I think Nintendo is good about funneling you certain ways without you being totally conscious of it) went in the direction that would, if I kept going in that direction, inevitably lead me to one of the main dungeons. Just getting to the first tower there was pretty interesting, a huge climb with enemies everywhere. And I think I ran into my first Wizzrobe? But I wasn't quite ready to continue down the main quest path, so after I got to the top of the tower, I backtracked.

But it sucks that the only time I can find to play is late at night, and then I stay up too late when I have to get up at 6:30 for work the next morning, and then I'm wired and sleep deprived and stressed all the time. Ug. I can't wait until Spring break when I will finally be able to sit down with this sucker without having to kill my own health to do it.

Maybe.

BTW are there less "kill a bunch of enemies to get a treasure chest" things as the game progresses? I feel like early on they were everywhere, but now I'll run into groups of enemies where I think there would be a treasure chest... yet no treasure chest. It's actually been awhile since a group had a treasure chest with them. On occasion they might have a regular chest laying around but I haven't found many of those "locked until you kill everyone" face chests lately.

@MasterSandman II

If you have the money, return to the stables that you passed on the way to Kakariko, and pay the guys inside to learn the riddle that will take you to Misko's Treasure. If you complete that sidequest, you'll find something that will help you out with one of your problems. (You can ask me for specifics once you find the treasure, but I don't want to give you any more info than that for spoiler's sake just yet.)

@Zero

I was gonna stop you but now I think you may be on to something. You may be right. But I've still seen some, but maybe not as many as around close to Plateau.

@DrFinkelstein

I think that's what I'll do. I decided to stop following the main story and ended up in an area with shrines and enemies that were way too powerful, haha.

@V_s

I did find the treasure with all the sapphire. Sell all of it?

@MasterSandman II

If you and I are talking about the same treasure, there was a bombable wall in the hideout that revealed a chest with a particular weapon inside it that would help you out in certain environments.