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The Legend of Zelda Timeline AND YOU!!!
by 
Editor
February 11, 2011, 02:32:49
 
Why is it that we love Zelda? The puzzles, the wacky characters, the BOSSES!? I'll tell you what I love about it- the story. While at first glance it might seem like most of the Zelda games have fairly simple plots, the overall web of how all the games connect keeps dedicated fans constantly coming up with new theories on the chronology of the Zelda franchise. Jumping right in can get overwhelming- but I'm here to help.

THIS IS:





Basic Knowledge
Before you can even think about thinking about the Zelda Timeline, there are a few things that you should know:

-All Zelda games take place in the same universe.
-Every game released has some sort of reference to another game in the series.
-The CD-i and BS Zelda games are not canon.
-There are multiple Links and Zeldas.
-There are at least two incarnations of Ganon.
-The Triforce's location/owner/status varies from game to game.
-Skyward Sword is the first game in the timeline.

Remember those!


The Official Zelda Timeline
Originally, this editorial laid out a theoretical timeline. Nintendo has since revealed the official Zelda timeline in the 25th Anniversary Hyrule Historia Zelda art book. Here is the full timeline, translated:


Nintendo's timeline doesn't perfectly match the one I had come up with- in fact, no one had guessed that the timeline would split into three branches. The only major difference between the Hyrule Historia timeline and the one I had put together is the placement of the Four Swords games. I said that Four Swords Adventures is a prequel to A Link to the Past showing the origin of Ganon, with Four Swords as a direct prequel to Four Swords Adventures. Four Swords Adventures' new placement makes sense; however, placing Four Swords directly after Minish Cap contradicts Four Swords Adventures' prologue, where it is implied that Four Swords took place only a few years prior to Four Swords Adventures. Despite this, I'll be using Nintendo's timeline for the rest of this editorial.

The Split
One of the most significant events in the entire Zelda universe is the ending of Ocarina of Time. After saving Hyrule and sealing Ganondorf away, Link is sent back in time by Zelda using the Ocarina of Time. Link appears standing in front of the Master Sword as a child. He then goes to Hyrule Castle to meet with young Zelda, just like at the beginning of the game. Since Zelda is still in Hyrule Castle, Link had to have been sent back in time to before he first opened the Door of Time- yet the Door of Time is open anyway.

What all this complicated time travel mumbo-jumbo boils down to is the Timeline Split. Back in the Hyrule that Link saved as an adult, Zelda, the Sages and the citizens of Hyrule go on living in peace until The Great Flood. This is known as the "Adult Timeline." The Hyrule that Link goes back in time to is known as the "Child Timeline." Upon meeting Zelda, Link warns her that her plan to stop Ganondorf will not work, and that they should wait until he makes a wrong move and reveals himself. Eventually, Ganondorf is caught, put on trial, and sealed in the Twilight Realm, as seen in Twilight Princess. Meanwhile, Link journeys to Termina and saves the land from Majora's Mask.

Now that the official timeline has been revealed, we've found out that the timeline splits off into a third branch at the end of Ocarina of Time. While the other two branches exist together as alternate universes, the third branch is a "What if?" scenario, taking the place of the Adult Timeline and preventing the Child Timeline from ever coming into existence. The third timeline allows for Ocarina of Time to act as the backstory for A Link to the Past- the Hero of Time is killed in the final confrontation with Ganon, leading to the Imprisoning War, where Ganon is sealed away by the seven sages.

Before Nintendo revealed the official timeline, one of the hottest points of timeline debate was whether there was a split or not. For some of the arguments for and against the split, check out this post.


The Official Timeline Explained
After looking at Nintendo's official timeline, you might have a few questions. In this section, I've put together a more in-depth version of the timeline to shed some light on the gray areas.

*Hyrule and the Triforce are created by the three goddesses, Din, Farore, and Nayru.*

*Skyward Sword's Backstory: Civilization advances to a point where intelligent robots exist. Demise attacks Hyrule and wipes out nearly all humans- the survivors are sent to the sky on a chunk of land that would later be known as Skyloft. The godess Hylia defeats and seals away Demise.*

Skyward Sword- The Master Sword is created and humans return to the surface. Before being sealed into the Master Sword, Demise prophecizes that his evil will return again and again in a never-ending cycle.

*Hyrule is founded once again. Hundreds of years pass.*

*Minish Cap's Backstory: The Picori create the Picori Sword and give it to a hero to seal away Hyrule's monsters.*

Minish Cap- Monsters are re-released into Hyrule. The Picori Sword is broken and reforged as the Four Sword. The Wind Sorcerer Vaati is defeated.

*Some time passes.*

Four Swords- Vaati breaks free of the Four Sword and kidnaps Princess Zelda (It is unclear whether Vaati was sealed in the Four Sword at the end of Minish Cap or sometime later). Zeldaís childhood friend, Link, saves her and seals Vaati back in the Four Sword.

*Hundreds of years pass.*

Ocarina of Time- The Split.


Adult Timeline

Ocarina of Time- The Triforce is broken into three parts. Power goes to Ganondorf, Wisdom to Zelda, Courage to Link. Ganon is defeated by Link and sealed away in the Sacred Realm. Link is sent back in time to his childhood. The Triforce of Courage is shattered and scattered across Hyrule.

*Wind Waker's Backstory: Ganondorf breaks free. Hyrule is flooded by the gods. Hundreds of years pass.*

Wind Waker- Ganondorf is killed. The Triforce is reassembled. Hyrule is washed away for good. Link and Tetra (Zelda) set out to find new land to settle on.

Phantom Hourglass- Craziness ensues on a high seas adventure with Link and Tetra.

*Link and Tetra find new land. They call the new land Hyrule and found a new kingdom. A hundred years pass.*

Spirit Tracks- A new Link saves Hyrule from an ancient demon.


Child Timeline

Ocarina of Time- After being sent back to the past, Link warns Zelda that Ganondorf plans to take over Hyrule, and that the best course of action would be to do nothing.

*Twilight Princess' Backstory: Ganondorf is eventually caught, trialed, and sealed away in the Twilight Realm.*

Majora's Mask- Link goes off to the Lost Woods on Epona to search for an old friend (presumably Navi). The Skull Kid steals Epona and the Ocarina of Time. Link follows the Skull Kid to Termina and finds out that in three days, the moon will crash into the earth and kill everyone.

*About a hundred years pass.*

Twilight Princess- Ganondorf, still stuck in the Twilight Realm, takes advantage of a power-hungry young Twili named Zant. Zant and Ganondorf invade Hyrule, only to be killed by a new Link.

*Some time passes.*

Four Swords Adventures- A mysterious Shadow Link causes some ruckus at the Four Sword shrine. A new Link and Zelda go to investigate. Link draws the Four Sword, releasing Vaati from his seal, and goes off to save the maidens of the shrine. Eventually Link finds out that Shadow Link and Vaati were just distractions. The real threat is a young Gerudo named Ganondorf, who stole an ancient trident and underwent a transformation into Ganon. Link kills Vaati and seals Ganon in the Four Sword.


Failure Timeline

Ocarina of Time- Link dies in the final battle against Ganon.

*A Link to the Past's Backstory: After the Hero of Time's death, the Imprisoning War began. No one was able to weild the Master Sword and kill Ganon, so he was sealed in the Sacred Realm (now the Dark World) by the sages. Some time passes.*

A Link to the Past- A priest named Agahnim tricks the people of Hyrule into putting him into a position of power. He captures the seven maidens (including Zelda) descended from the Sages who imprisoned Ganon. A new Link recovers the Master Sword and finds out that Agahnim was just Ganon's pawn. Link ventures to the Dark World, rescues the maidens and kills Ganon. Upon killing Ganon, Link finds the Triforce and wishes for all of Ganon's influences to leave Hyrule, sending the world into a period of peace and prosperity.

*Some time passes.*

Oracle of Ages / Oracle of Seasons- A new Link journies to Hyrule castle and sees the Triforce. It transports him to a foreign land that is being threatened by a new villian, either Veran or Onox, depending on which game is played first. It is eventually revealed that this new villian is just a pawn of Koume and Kotake, two of Ganon's most loyal followers. Their master plan is to revive Ganon- but of course, Link stops them and kills their bastardized half-revived Ganon. His work done, Link sets off on a boat.

Link's Awakening- Link's boat crashes and he lands on a strange island.

*Some time passes.*

*Zelda II's Backstory: Long story short, the Triforce of Courage is hidden away in the Great Palace and Princess Zelda is put under a sleeping spell. More time passes.*

The Legend of Zelda- A new Zelda is captured by Ganon (this is the same Ganon from A Link to the Past, but it isn't explained how he was resurrected). Ganon steals the Triforce of Power; Zelda manages to shatter the Triforce of Wisdom and scatter it across the land of Hyrule. A new Link sets out to recover the pieces of the Triforce of Wisdom, rescue Zelda, kill Ganon and get the Triforce of Power back. He does.

*A few years pass.*

Zelda II: Adventures of Link- Link finds out about the sleeping Zelda. The only way to break the spell is to use the Triforce of Courage in conjunction with the other two pieces of the Triforce. Link sets out to recover the Triforce of Courage from the Great Palace. Meanwhile, followers of Ganon try to kill Link and use his blood to revive Ganon. They fail, Link succeeds. The Triforce is whole again.


The Future of the Legend of Zelda Series
So where does Zelda go from here? All of the loose ends left by Ocarina of Time have been tied up, and the Old Hyrule, along with nearly every single important plot item, is lost in the Adult Timeline. A sequel to Spirit Tracks would need a new villian and new plot that has nothing to do with the Triforce. That is, unless the Triforce and Master Sword somehow come back.

A sequel to Four Swords Adventures would make the most sense at this point; Ganon is still sealed in the Four Sword in that timeline. Besides, who wouldn't want a Wii U or 3DS online Four Swords game?

Skyward Sword has opened up a whole new onslaught of possibilities for the next Zelda game. We could have a series of prequels taking place in the technologically advanced Hyrule that the Timeshift Stones gave us a glimpse at, or we could have a direct sequel that ties up a few of the loose ends from Skyward Sword.


What Else is There?
Now you know all there is to know about Zelda, right? WRONG! The Zelda universe is rich with unsolved mysteries. Take a look at any Zelda fansite. There are constant discussions and analyses about even the most obscure facts. Why did the Zoras evolve into birds, but the Gorons just stayed the same? How many groups of sages are there, and how are they connected? Why are there giant phallic pillars in Majora's Mask? The list goes on and on. So get out there and start analyzing!

Special thanks to the Zelda Wiki for remembering what I didn't and Triforcebun for making the banner art. And thank YOU for reading! Be sure to read the comment thread for a lot of great discussion!

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Posted: 02/11/11, 02:32:49  - Edited by 
 on: 05/17/13, 08:46:18    
 
Why not sign up for a (free) account and create your own content?
 
I'm against the split because it harbors the idea that everything you do in Ocarina of Time was for nothing. You fuck up the World, or Zelda does, so you go about cleaning it up. Only to clean it up, but go back in time to where everything is still fucked up. And apparently you do nothing about it but leave town to go hunt for some mysterious friend who left you.

The way I see it is that Link and Zelda both screw up hardcore in trying to stop Ganondorf, so they travel time in order to erase their mistake. By doing so they are allowed to go back to right after the make the mistake. This means that Ganondorf is entirely exposed in his plan to take over Hyrule, so the grown ups take over and attempt to execute him, and then Link decides to bail and find a fairy.

Majora's Mask states that Link had just saved Hyrule and was leaving the land that made him a hero. If the timeline split, he is not a Hero. Young Link does nothing heroic in the split, Adult Link is the one who does the heroic stuff.

Of course, it all gets muddy and chipped and ultimately blown to pieces when a member of the Zelda team speaks. Someone contradicts this, someone contradicts this, BLAH Blah blah.

Oh, and do you, Triforcebun, have the banner without the words? Namely Link with the hourglass? That'd make a mighty badass icon, IMO.

I've also never seen the Four Swords saga split up by such a margin. Every time I've seen it, it's always been Minish Cap, Four Swords, Four Swords Adventures and then Ocarina of Time. Haven't sat down and read about the timeline in a few years, so I can't really comment on why that is the case. I believe its that way because its before the Master Sword.


Posted by 
 on: 02/11/11, 03:46:45  - Edited by 
 on: 02/11/11, 03:50:32
@missypissy You say if the timeline was split, young Link wouldn't have been a hero...but is that true? I always assumed that at the end of OoT, Link goes back to being a kid, with the memories of his adventure as a teenager intact. The idea of a split timeline never seemed to negate the idea that Young Link went on his time traveling adventure, at least to me.


Posted by 
 on: 02/11/11, 04:11:46  - Edited by 
 on: 02/11/11, 04:13:00
I dunno, I agree with the idea of a timeline split, but I disagree about the game ordering.

We've established that Link wasn't really a hero as a child... except for all of these sages who just might not be bound by that. I imagine that his tale was told and passed on in both timelines. Link did leave and got trapped in Termina. This is where things get different. We don't know where Link went to as a child, and we do know he left as an adult. Termina could've really been something crazy and the Hero of Time really got lost in time forever. Both instances would explain why Link was missing in the legend at the start of Wind Waker.

Therefore, I argue that Wind Waker could be placed after EITHER timeline, which would change everything afterwards.


Posted by 
 on: 02/11/11, 04:16:31
Definitely going to have something to post here later. But I've used up all my available procrastination time, so this thread will be hearing from me no later than Sunday, I'm thinking. I like a good deal of what I skimmed though...


Posted by 
 on: 02/11/11, 04:19:08
And whatever V_s says will be the best you'll get out of this thing, probably. Can't remember which side of the fence you're on (because it seems like you change your mind all the damn time!!!!) but he'll break it down in an amazing way. Regardless of which side, he backs up things nicely.

@PogueSquadron

I believe he remembers everything. But the thing I'm focusing in on is that Majora's Mask says he is leaving the land that made him a Hero. Nothing of event happens in the Young Link timeline to make him a Hero, he literally just walks out of the Temple of Time and then leaves for Termina in the span of three months. The only thing I've been able to come up with is that the major players are warped back in time at the end of OoT. This includes Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. This is where the single timeline gets really stupid. There are two Ganondorfs. Adult Ganondorf is defeated and sealed in the Evil Realm (or Dark Realm, can't remember what OoT calls it). Which, if it's like any other realm, has no concept of time. He is just stuck in there until he eventually breaks out and starts his war against Hyrule in Wind Waker's beginning. Link is sent back right after he first pulls the sword and sometime before Ganondorf makes his march on the Temple. Which means he has already attacked the Castle but because he has no access to the Sacred Realm he is put on trial for his crimes against the crown and then sentenced to death. This is why one Ganondorf (Wind Waker) recalls Link and why the other (Twilight Princess) makes no mention of him. Because he is sentenced to death by the King, without Young Link involved, and thus has no beef with him.

Is it stupid? You bet. Either way things start devolving into "magic" but the idea of a split just hasn't set well with me. The Adult Timeline is set up nicely, but then Young Link is just kind of...there. Where as the entirity of OoT has Young Link influencing the future with his actions, yet apparently when he is sent back in time one last time that just up and stops. Granted, there are a lot of holes with what I said.


Posted by 
 on: 02/11/11, 04:40:09  - Edited by 
 on: 02/11/11, 04:44:19
Nice work laying out your logic Secret_Tunnel. I always find it fascinating to dig deeper into the whole Zelda timeline, itís like trying to decipher old manuscripts of a civilization long forgotten.

I have some observations:

1) In the Child Timeline, you theorize that Ganondorf is killed at the end of Twilight Princess.

So how does he re-appear in the subsequent Four Swords Adventure?
ďThe real threat is a young Gerudo named Ganondorf, who stole an ancient trident and underwent a transformation into Ganon. Link kills Vaati and seals Ganon in the Four Sword.Ē

Perhaps youíre implying this is another Ganondorf altogether. Thatís one thing I donít like too much about these theories: what a great coincidence that there have been multiple individuals throughout history with the same name, physical appearance, and tendency toward evil.

2) Also, my train of thought has always been that the backstory for A Link to the Past (Ganon is sealed in the Dark World by the sages, an event known as The Imprisoning War) was a legend referring to the events that actually happened during Ocarina of Time (the Sages being Rauru, Saria, Darunia, Ruto, Impa, and Nabooru). That simply makes sense. And maybe you did consider this but were not able to make the timeline work into the grand scheme of things.

3) Thanks for posting this link to The Message of Majoraís Mask. If anyone hasnít read this, do so now. Itís made me realize that Majoraís Mask is a lot deeper than I thought. Well, I always knew it was, but this article does a fantastic job of pointing things out for you.

Looking forward to Skyward Sword!


Posted by 
 on: 02/11/11, 18:57:36
I'll read through the whole post later, but I admire your courage in attempting this.

(What if all of the games were just dreams? MARIO'S DREAMS?)


Posted by 
 on: 02/11/11, 19:20:57
@missypissy

The only way that the single timeline can work is if there are two Links. For the sake of argument, let's say that there are. Link 1 will be the original, Link 2 is the one that killed Ganon and went back in time.

Link 1 goes to talk to Zelda. Sometime before Ganondorf attacks Hyrule Castle, Link 2 goes to talk to Zelda. Zelda gives Link 2 the Ocarina of Time. Link 2 travels to Termina with the Ocarina of Time (and Epona!). Later, Ganondorf attacks Hyrule Castle. Impa and Zelda flee, and Zelda throws Link 1 the Ocarina of Time. Except she doesn't have the Ocarina of Time, Link 2 does.

@roykoopa64

1. Yeah, I meant that it was another Ganondorf. Remember that every 100 years a Gerudo male is born- it wouldn't be too far fetched for them to all be named Ganondorf as a tradition. It's also been semi-confirmed kind of sort of somewhere that Link, Zelda and Ganon all reincarnate.

2. Originally, Ocarina of Time was supposed to describe the events of the Imprisoning War. The split timeline messes that up though, and OoT doesn't really match up with it anyway. In the backstory, no hero was found to wield the Master Sword. In OoT, Link wields the Master Sword.

And like I said towards the end of the post, the sages have always been one of the aspects of Zelda that intrigue me most. The ones from TP all have the same emblems as the ones from OoT, but all they really do is guard the Mirror of Twilight.

3. That's a great read. After re-reading it I've been imaging over the past few days how amazing a prequel to Majora's Mask would be.


Posted by 
 on: 02/12/11, 00:35:00
Like I said before, I really like a lot of what I see here. A bunch of these ideas reflect my own, and there's very little in the way of theorization that goes against the evidence we have. It's very nicely done. Now let's get to commenting on this thing...

[ref=id=4575&pagenumber=1#112928]Secret_Tunnel said:[/ref][quote]-The Triforce's location/owner/status varies from game to game.[/quote]
While I agree with this, I also want to add that the Triforce's location and owners are consistent from one game to the next game in the timeline. For example, at the end of OoT, the Triforce of Power is sealed away in the Evil Realm with Ganondorf, and according to TWW, the Triforce of Courage is split into eight pieces and spread throughout Hyrule. So no game that features the Triforce of Power outside of the Evil Realm can take place in-between OoT and TWW's back story (because he doesn't escape the Evil Realm until then), and no game featuring a whole Triforce of Courage can take place in between OoT and TWW (the game where the pieces are all brought back together).

[ref=id=4575&pagenumber=1#112928]Secret_Tunnel said:[/ref][quote](It should be noted that Minish Cap doesn't necessarily take place right before Four Swords. On the contrary, it probably takes place hundreds and hundreds of years before.)[/quote]
Thank you for including this. So many people seem to forget that FS and FSA make no mention whatsoever to the events of TMC, and even the Four Sword and Vaati from TMC act very differently from the Four Sword and Vaati from FS/FSA, meaning that they may not necessarily be the same things from game to game, and they certainly don't have to be (though they might be).

[ref=id=4575&pagenumber=1#112928]Secret_Tunnel said:[/ref][quote]Logically, since Zelda is still in Hyrule Castle, Link had to have been sent back in time to before he first opened the Door of Time- yet the Door of Time is open anyway.[/quote]
1. We never see the Door of Time at the end of the game. For all we know, it still could have been closed. The camera is pointing towards the Master Sword and Pedestal of Time when Link reappears in the past. He then runs down off the altar and the camera remains facing the Master Sword. It's possible that Link ran through an open Door of Time, Link ran towards a closed Door of Time that opened for him, or that Link just stepped away from the altar (and therefore out of the camera's field of vision), played a warp song, and flew out of the temple through the window, just like Navi.

2. While unlikely, it's not impossible that Zelda could have returned to the castle initially after being chased away by Ganondorf. After all, even after chasing Zelda and Impa away, Ganondorf didn't establish his rule over Hyrule until quite a bit later once Link finally got around to pulling out the Master Sword, Ganondorf noticed, and made his way into the Sacred Realm.

[ref=id=4575&pagenumber=1#112928]Secret_Tunnel said:[/ref][quote]-Eiji Aunoma, shortly after the release of Twilight Princess, stated in an interview that there was indeed a split in the timeline.[/quote]
It's nit-picky, yes, but Aonuma actually said that the events of TP are parallel (when asked where they take place in accordance to TWW). That doesn't have to mean a split (though he probably intended it to).

[ref=id=4575&pagenumber=1#112928]Secret_Tunnel said:[/ref][quote]-After the Great Flood and the events of Wind Waker, Hyrule is washed away completely, along with the Triforce, the Master Sword, the Four Sword and several other artifacts. The New Hyrule from Spirit Tracks is commonly believed by nonbelievers of the Split to be where the rest of the Zelda games are set. If this is true, then how were all of said artifacts brought to the New Hyrule?[/quote]
Simple, the Deku Tree said that the Koroks were trying to plant trees to reunite all of the islands. Given so many centuries/millennia, they will succeed. There's no reason that they shouldn't. Furthermore, FSA Hyrule and ALttP Hyrule look incredibly similar to one another (and in-game evidence suggests a close relation between the two), but one of the big differences is that FSA Hyrule is surrounded by water. ALttP Hyrule isn't. So if FSA does lead into ALttP so many centuries/millennia down the line, it seems we have at least a graphical confirmation of the Great Sea receding over time.

[ref=id=4575&pagenumber=1#112928]Secret_Tunnel said:[/ref][quote]Unless Zelda talks to two different Links, which almost definitely doesn't happen, this is the only Link that exists in the Child Timeline (for now).[/quote]
Why is it almost definite that Zelda didn't talk to two different Links (assuming you're referring to a past Link and a future Link as two different Links even though it would technically be just the one guy, one of which had time traveled already and one of which who would time travel soon). If Link's dream from the very beginning of the game was supposed to be prophetic, then there's already evidence within the game that something was changed from the desired path along the way. I.e., Zelda knew to throw her Ocarina to present Link when she normally wouldn't have. If she had talked to future Link, who knew that Zelda did throw the Ocarina to him, then Zelda would also know that that's what she was supposed to do because of future Link. Furthermore, Ocarina of Time includes an element which makes it so that time can't be changed: the Song of Storms. It is the perfect example of the type of time travel that OoT utilizes -- the type where you can only fulfill the past by traveling back to it, not change it. If time travel in OoT allowed you to change time, then either the adult timeline would have ceased to exist (which we know isn't true unless TWW, PH, and ST are all "what-if" games), or the end of the game would have left us with two Links (and Navis) living simultaneously in the same Hyrule anyway, but with one who never leaves the Kokiri Forest and meets Zelda, while the other does meet Zelda, lives in Hyrule for a few months while being recognized as a hero, and then going off to find his lost friend.

[ref=id=4575&pagenumber=1#112928]Secret_Tunnel said:[/ref][quote]-In Twilight Princess, an ancient hero is referenced several times. This probably isn't referring to the Child Timeline's young Link, since he didn't do much to save Hyrule. It's probably referring to Adult Link, from the Adult Timeline. This is another case of the Child Timeline referencing the Adult Timeline. However, it could also be referencing an event that happened in the past that we don't know about yet. In Minish Cap there is also talk of an ancient hero, and Skyward Sword is supposed to be the earliest game in the timeline. The ancient hero referred to in Twilight Princess could easily be one of these heroes.[/quote]
I think the stronger argument here is that the clothes that were given to TP Link were said to have been worn by the hero. At that point there had only been two adult Links in the series -- OoT Link and AoL Link. So it had to have been referring to OoT Link. Of course, your point about SS still stands (at least in the way of it featuring an adult Link prior to TP).

There are other bits of evidence that point against the split as well:

On Outset Island we are told that the young boys were dressed in the clothing of the Hero of Time whenever the children came of age (whenever they became the same age as the Hero of Time). TWW Link was just a child when he became the same age as the Hero of Time, so that means that Outset Island celebrates the child Link as the Hero of Time. In the adult timeline, however, the child Link did nothing except let Ganondorf into the Sacred Realm so he could steal the Triforce. In the child timeline, however, when Link went back in time, the legend of the Hero of Time got spread around and the child Link became famous as the Hero of Time before he left Hyrule in the events of MM. So the people on Outset Island appear to be referring back to an event that only happened in the child timeline.

The King of Hyrule told TWW Link that the Hero of Time never returned to save them from Ganon because he left the land of Hyrule. When he left the land of Hyrule, the Triforce of Courage broke into 8 pieces across the land. Some people interpret this to mean that Link left the adult timeline and went to the child timeline, but he was still in the land of Hyrule then... Link didn't leave the land of Hyrule until MM when he ended up in Termina. On top of that, we are told that when Link left Hyrule he left behind the elements that made him a hero. The two things that made him the Hero of Time were the Master Sword and the Triforce of Courage, but he didn't leave either of those behind until he left for Termina. We know this is true because if you watch the very end of OoT, child Link walks into the garden to talk to Zelda, and on Link's hand is the Triforce of Courage. He brought it back in time with him. It didn't break up when he went back in time. It broke up as he was leaving Hyrule to go to the Lost Woods and Termina in MM. TWW is yet again referencing the child timeline. (And also, since Link brought the Triforce of Courage back in time with him, how did it get back into the adult timeline for TWW Link to collect it?)

The figurines in TWW of one of the Rito says that his ancestor used to be a Postman. The Rito in question looks EXACTLY like the MM Postman (but with feathers). Obviously his ancestor was meant to be the MM Postman, so the Postman (who existed in Termina, which may have only existed in the child timeline) had to come to Hyrule in order to have a descendant that would eventually be a Rito. (Of course this last point is fairly weak now since there have now been two other Postmen in Hyrule prior to TWW timeline-wise, but when TWW first came out there was only the MM Postman.)

However, even with all of this evidence that TWW fits in the child timeline, TWW Ganondorf remembers fighting the Hero of Time, something that only happened in the adult timeline... TWW's back story tells the tale of the Hero of Time fighting OoT Ganon which took place in the adult timeline... TWW logically has to follow both the adult AND child timelines. That can only happen if they're both the same timeline... something that is only possible with the single timeline.


Now, all that said, I'm not completely opposed to the idea of a split timeline. I just prefer the single timeline because it has fewer holes. Apart from creator quotes, there aren't any holes in the single timeline that the split timeline doesn't share with it, but the split timeline has a whole host of holes on its own. And since I believe that in-game evidence > creator quotes as far as canonicity is concerned, that makes the single timeline win out for me since that's what the games seem to support. (Note: I don't dismiss creator quotes as non-canon on principle. I definitely believe that they're the second highest level of canon (just shy of the officially released games and materials that come with them (i.e. the stuff on the back of the boxes and in the instruction booklets). Creator quotes still outweigh official player's guide quotes and any other unofficially released evidence).

[ref=id=4575&pagenumber=1#112928]Secret_Tunnel said:[/ref][quote]Minish Cap- Monsters are released onto Hyrule. The Four Sword is created. Vaati is sealed away in the Four Sword.[/quote]
I completely agree with this except that Vaati wasn't sealed away in the Four Sword at the end of the game. Vaati went up in a puff of smoke just like every other villain. So my theory is that either Vaati was killed at the end of TMC (and FS/FSA Vaati is a reincarnation), or Vaati reverted back to his Minish form at the end of the game and escaped unseen (where he will eventually build up the new powers and form that we see and hear about in FS, FSA, and FS's back story).

[ref=id=4575&pagenumber=1#112928]Secret_Tunnel said:[/ref][quote]Wind Waker- Ganondorf is killed. The Triforce is reassembled. Hyrule is washed away for good. Link and Tetra (Zelda) set out to find new land to settle on.[/quote]
Where do you think the Triforce went?


Posted by 
 on: 02/12/11, 00:49:43  - Edited by 
 on: 02/12/11, 00:52:51
Secret_Tunnel said:
*Link and Tetra find new land. They call the new land Hyrule and found a new kingdom. Hundreds of years pass.*

Probably only 100 years pass here. Aonuma said that ST takes place 100 years after PH, and Niko from TWW/PH is still alive in ST (as is Linebeck's grandson), so unless the Hylians (humans at this point?) have a much longer lifespan than we thought, 100 years would be a safer bet than "hundreds" of years.

Secret_Tunnel said:
*Ganondorf is eventually caught, trialed, and sealed away in the Twilight Realm.*

If TP Ganondorf isn't the same guy as OoT Ganondorf, then this event could even take place after MM. After all, if he was the same, what's up with the different personality, reputation, motivation, goal, and lack of knowledge about the Hero of Time when everyone else in Hyrule seems to know about him by the time of TP? Also, how would there have been a difference in Ganondorf's fate? In OoT Ganondorf alone (without the Triforce of Power) managed to cause havoc all throughout Hyrule, chase away Zelda and Impa, and kill at least one knight (though likely more). So why are we to believe 1) that the King finally started believing his daughter who we are told he didn't believe throughout the first half of the game, and 2) that Ganondorf, with the help of a bunch of his men this time (because in TP we're told that Ganondorf didn't attack alone) managed to lose this time around?

Secret_Tunnel said:
*Some time passes.*

Four Swords- Vaati breaks free of the Four Sword and kidnaps Princess Zelda. Zeldaís childhood friend, Link, saves her and seals Vaati back in the Four Sword.

Gotta stick FS's back story in there somewhere. Since its events bear no similarities to TMC, they have to be two different events, and we've got to get Vaati in the Four Sword somehow before he can break free.

Secret_Tunnel said:
*A few years pass.*

Since a few years pass in between FS and FSA (which I also believe, because that's a direct quote from the back of the game's box), do you believe that FS Link and FSA Link are the same guy or different?

Secret_Tunnel said:
The Legend of Zelda- It is implied that this is the same Ganon from A Link to the Past.

How so? He doesn't have the trident. He doesn't have any of the Triforce until he later steals it. He's referred to as the Prince of Darkness where as ALttP Ganon was referred to as the King of Darkness (though I'm told that their Japanese titles are the same). ALttP Ganon is killed at the end of his game. Where did this implication come from?

Secret_Tunnel said:
So where does Zelda go from here?

The way I see it, there is plenty of room for new games in the timeline:

Creation
No games in Hyrule that feature monsters
TP's interloper back story
No games in Hyrule that feature monsters
TMC's back story
No games in Hyrule that feature monsters
TMC
Infinite amount of games
SS
Infinite amount of games
OoT's back story
A period of about 6-12 years (enough room for a few games in Hyrule; infine amount of games outside of Hyrule)
OoT
MM
Infinite amount of games (as long as they either feature the Hero of Time* and/or take place outside of Hyrule)
TP's Ganondorf back story
Infinite amount of games (as long as they either feature the Hero of Time* and/or take place outside of Hyrule)
TP
Infinite amount of games (as long as they either feature the Hero of Time* and/or take place outside of Hyrule)
TWW's back story
No games in Hyrule
TWW
Infinite amount of games (as long as they feature the Hero of Winds)
PH
A period of 100 years pass (enough room for a good amount of games (with or without the Hero of Winds))
ST (ST's back story really could have taken place at any time prior to this)
Infinite amount of games
FSA's back story
Infinite amount of games
FS's back story
Infinite amount of games
FS
A period of "years" (enough room for a game or two in Hyrule; infinite amount of games outside of Hyrule if two Links can coexist simultaneously)
FSA
Infinite amount of games
ALttP
A very short period (enough room for quite a few games starring ALttP Link)
LA
Infinite amount of games
OoS/OoA
Infinite amount of games
AoL's back story
Infinite amount of games (as long as the Triforce of Courage isn't featured)
LoZ's back story
LoZ
A period of "seasons" (enough room for a few games featuring LoZ Link)
AoL
Infinite amount of games

And since we know that two Zeldas can exist at the same time, there shouldn't be any reason that two Links can't exist at the same time if Nintendo wanted to make a game that took place, say, at the same time as OoT but in Labrynna. It could still star a hero named Link and there shouldn't technically be a problem with that.

Secret_Tunnel said:
The Imprisoning War would make for a great game

Absolutely. The problem is that it'd probably have to be a spinoff not featuring a hero, or it would have to pull a TP (with the hero going unnoticed throughout his deeds) since we are told that the sages couldn't find anyone to wield the Master Sword in that game.

Secret_Tunnel said:
A sequel taking place after Zelda II would make the most sense at this point. It would allow for a new take on the Ganon/Triforce/Master Sword story.

I'd love to see this. Two Zeldas vying for the throne simultaneously? Ganon dead, and his minions still seeking out Link's blood? Maybe even that secret about the Triforce that the elder Princess Zelda supposedly knew which caused her to be cursed into an eternal sleep would come into play. And then since AoL likely takes place after ALttP (and the Master Sword supposedly "sleeps forever" following ALttP), we'd get a story that wasn't so reliant on the, IMO, now-slightly-overplayed Master Sword

Secret_Tunnel said:
Why exactly did the Zoras evolve into birds, but the Gorons just stayed the same? How many groups of sages are there, and how are they connected? Why are there giant phallic pillars in Majora's Mask? The list goes on and on.

Funnily enough, I have an answer for almost all of those. (Correct or not though, I'm not going to post them in this post because of how long it's getting.)


Posted by 
 on: 02/12/11, 00:53:46
missypissy said:
Majora's Mask states that Link had just saved Hyrule and was leaving the land that made him a hero. If the timeline split, he is not a Hero. Young Link does nothing heroic in the split, Adult Link is the one who does the heroic stuff.

Presumably Link told the Royal Family of his exploits, showed them his Triforce of Courage, and they believed him and recognized him as a hero. It's also interesting to note that prior to Link falling asleep there is no mention in Hyrule of the prophecy of the Hero of Time. After Link wakes up, however, there's all sorts of talk about the foretold Hero of Time. It may just be theory, but it makes a lot of sense that future Link who had traveled back in time told the Royal Family of his exploits as a hero, thereby establishing the prophecy of the Hero of Time, which is finally heard by present Link for the first time once he waked up after the legend had begun to be spread around.

Cubed777 said:
I dunno, I agree with the idea of a timeline split, but I disagree about the game ordering.

Heh. That's funny because I agree with the ordering, but not the split.

Cubed777 said:
Termina could've really been something crazy and the Hero of Time really got lost in time forever.

But at the end of MM we see Link and Epona in the Lost Woods again. So they presumably left Termina and ended up back where they started at the end of the game. I'd say that the reason Link doesn't show up during TWW's back story is because it takes place at least a hundred years after OoT. The people of Hyrule at that time knew of the legend of the Hero that could travel through time, but they didn't realize that it wasn't something that he could just use at will. He was only able to use it to travel 7 years into the future (and even then only by sleeping through those 7 years). He never really had the ability to time travel at will, much less to some undefined point hundreds of years in the future.

roykoopa64 said:
So how does he re-appear in the subsequent Four Swords Adventure?

Because we are told in FSA that that particular Ganon is an "ancient demon reborn". FSA Ganon is given a new origin story. He was born into a different group of Gerudos that have different rules from OoT's group of Gerudos. He was the reincarnated form of a past Ganon. We already have evidence of Link reincarnating. We know that multiple Zeldas have existed since Adventure of Link. Why shouldn't all of the other characters reincarnate as well?

roykoopa64 said:
2) Also, my train of thought has always been that the backstory for A Link to the Past (Ganon is sealed in the Dark World by the sages, an event known as The Imprisoning War) was a legend referring to the events that actually happened during Ocarina of Time (the Sages being Rauru, Saria, Darunia, Ruto, Impa, and Nabooru). That simply makes sense.

Yes, at one time OoT was originally intended to be a retelling of the Imprisoning/Seal War. However, that can't possibly be the case any more. After all, the descendants of the Imprisoning War sages are human. Darunia, Ruto, and Saria definitely aren't human, so they couldn't have had human descendants. Furthermore, in the Imprisoning War, Ganon made his way into the Sacred Realm/Dark World and got the whole Triforce. OoT Ganondorf only got part of it. IW (Imprisoning War) Ganon transformed the Sacred Realm into the Dark World and couldn't find his way out. OoT Ganondorf transformed the Sacred Realm into the Evil Realm and found his way out relatively quickly in order to take over Hyrule. In the IW all of the Knights of Hyrule fought against the monsters pouring out of the Dark World while the sages tried to create a seal. In OoT, only Link (and I guess that one Knight that died in the back alley) fought against Ganondorf, and then after he was subdued the sages threw Ganondorf back into the Evil Realm and sealed it shut. In the IW the sages couldn't find the Master Sword or even a hero to wield it. In OoT both a hero and the Master Sword were found and used against Ganon. In the IW the Triforce remains whole in the Dark World in order for it to still be whole when ALttP occurs. In OoT the Triforce remains split in three so it can be brought together again in TWW.

There's just no way for OoT to be the IW any more.

roykoopa64 said:
3) Thanks for posting this link to The Message of Majoraís Mask. If anyone hasnít read this, do so now. Itís made me realize that Majoraís Mask is a lot deeper than I thought. Well, I always knew it was, but this article does a fantastic job of pointing things out for you.

I like that article for its inventiveness, but from what I remember it wasn't very factually accurate. It's been a while, but a few years back I wrote a bit going through everything that that article did wrong, and I came up with quite few hefty walls-o'-text, so there must have been something about it that I had an issue with. Not going to reread it right now to try and figure out what that might have been though. Maybe later.

Secret_Tunnel said:
Link 1 goes to talk to Zelda. Sometime before Ganondorf attacks Hyrule Castle, Link 2 goes to talk to Zelda. Zelda gives Link 2 the Ocarina of Time. Link 2 travels to Termina with the Ocarina of Time (and Epona!). Later, Ganondorf attacks Hyrule Castle. Impa and Zelda flee, and Zelda throws Link 1 the Ocarina of Time. Except she doesn't have the Ocarina of Time, Link 2 does.

Your timeline is a little off there. Link 2 doesn't go immediately to Termina. He hangs out in Hyrule with Zelda for a few months first. So you should move the "Zelda gives Link 2 the Ocarina of Time" to a point after "Zelda throws Link 1 the Ocarina of Time". And the reason why she is able to give Link 2 the Ocarina while Link 1 cradles it in his sleep in the Temple of Time is likely because of the same reason that TWW Link (and arguably TP Link) is able to wield the Master Sword during that game.

Think about it. If we're going with the split timeline and future Link is sent back in time along with the Master Sword and all of his other gear, where does the adult timeline Master Sword come from? Link had it, didn't he? But didn't Link return to the past, taking all of his gear out of the future with him? So that means there shouldn't be a Master Sword in TWW unless the Royal Family created a new one in between OoT's adult ending and TWW. The alternative is that future Link just didn't bring the Master Sword back in time with him. But we saw the Master Sword in its sheath strapped to future Link's back as he was engulfed in glowing blue light. So if the Master Sword was left behind in the future, it happened after we stopped seeing Link. And at that point, if Zelda remembered future Link giving her the Ocarina as a child when he returned to the past, she would be just as well within her right to give the Ocarina to future Link without us seeing just like Link was able to give her the Master Sword without us seeing.


P.S. - Sorry about the triple post. I wrote it all up as one post without realizing the markup only supports 9 quotes per post...


Posted by 
 on: 02/12/11, 00:54:56
V_s said:
Simple, the Deku Tree said that the Koroks were trying to plant trees to reunite all of the islands. Given so many centuries/millennia, they will succeed. There's no reason that they shouldn't. Furthermore, FSA Hyrule and ALttP Hyrule look incredibly similar to one another (and in-game evidence suggests a close relation between the two), but one of the big differences is that FSA Hyrule is surrounded by water. ALttP Hyrule isn't. So if FSA does lead into ALttP so many centuries/millennia down the line, it seems we have at least a graphical confirmation of the Great Sea receding over time.

Are you saying that the ocean itself was soaked away by all the new trees, or that all of the islands were sort of joined together? Because if they were joined together than it would be even harder for someone to, say, go underwater and retrieve the Master Sword.

V_s said:
It is the perfect example of the type of time travel that OoT utilizes -- the type where you can only fulfill the past by traveling back to it, not change it.

That's how it works with the Master Sword at least. But I would think that the Sage of Time playing the Ocarina of Time could kind of break the rules- at least when it comes to the Hero of Time. In Majora's Mask, Link goes back in time constantly to change the future using the Ocarina of Time. Unless Termina has different time travel rules, then it's totally possible for there to be different types of time travel.

V_s said:
(Of course this last point is fairly weak now since there have now been two other Postmen in Hyrule prior to TWW timeline-wise, but when TWW first came out there was only the MM Postman.)

And his Hyrulean counterpart, assuming all Terminians have one.

V_s said:
Where do you think the Triforce went?

Probably back to the Sacred Realm. I suppose it could have gone inside of the King or something too though.

V_s said:
Probably only 100 years pass here. Aonuma said that ST takes place 100 years after PH, and Niko from TWW/PH is still alive in ST (as is Linebeck's grandson), so unless the Hylians (humans at this point?) have a much longer lifespan than we thought, 100 years would be a safer bet than "hundreds" of years.

Yep, you're right. I should actually edit that so as not to have false info.

V_s said:
Lack of knowledge about the Hero of Time when everyone else in Hyrule seems to know about him by the time of TP?

Do they really though? From what I remember (and I could totally be wrong), the title "Hero of Time" is never mentioned in Twilight Princess. As for Majora's Mask, it only ever says that the legend of the Hero of Time is held dearly to the Royal Family- which it would be, since Link told Zelda and probably no one else about it.

V_s said:
Also, how would there have been a difference in Ganondorf's fate? In OoT Ganondorf alone (without the Triforce of Power) managed to cause havoc all throughout Hyrule, chase away Zelda and Impa, and kill at least one knight (though likely more). So why are we to believe 1) that the King finally started believing his daughter who we are told he didn't believe throughout the first half of the game, and 2) that Ganondorf, with the help of a bunch of his men this time (because in TP we're told that Ganondorf didn't attack alone) managed to lose this time around?

The King didn't necessarily believe Zelda, it's just that Link never collected the three spiritual stones and never opened the Door of Time. No matter how or when Ganondorf ended up revealing himself and attacking, without the Triforce of Power it's safe to say that he would eventually fall to the might of the entire Hylian army.

V_s said:
Do you believe that FS Link and FSA Link are the same guy or different?

Same guy. He and Zelda are already friends and everything, just like in FS.

V_s said:
ALttP Ganon is killed at the end of his game. Where did this implication come from?

This line from the Japanese Link to the Past manual:

"The man's name was Ganondorf, and his common name was Ganon of the race of evil thieves. Indeed, the King of Evil Ganon, the one who has threatened Hyrule so, was born at this time."

Since at the time that was written there were only two other Zelda games, it has to be referring to the Ganon from the NES games. That line and it saying Ganondorf was a man several times also lead me to believe that the Ganon from FSA isn't necessarily the one from ALttP. Of course, FSA Ganon could've disguised himself as a humanoid.

And let me just end this response by saying holy crap, time travel.


Posted by 
 on: 02/12/11, 01:40:41  - Edited by 
 on: 02/12/11, 02:25:21
@Secret_Tunnel

Ocarina of Time doesn't hint at there even being duplicates created, though. Everything in the game hints at time running in a straight line. Young Link empties the well, Adult Link sees the well is empty. Young Link flips a switch, Adult Link can get through the door. A runs into B, B runs into C, and everything feeds off each other. Time travel in the game is not 'normal'. Young Link doesn't time travel, he sleeps for 7 years. Adult Link doesn't time travel because you never run around as Adult Link before Ganondorf takes over. You switch between Young Link and Adult Link via the Master Sword

You erase the future every time you play as Young Link. What you do influences what happens next. Ganondorf will still take over, Zelda will still be Sheik, and all the major pieces will fall into place. But every time you go back to Young Link the future does not yet exist. You aren't fighting two wars, you are fighting the same war from two fronts.

Now, how can there be two Ganondorfs...this is because of the Sage factor. Ganondorf is sealed in the Evil Realm which exists outside of time. No matter what year, day, minute, or even second it is on Hyrule Ganondorf is not influenced by it in this realm. No matter where Link is in time, Ganondorf is still in that realm. This is the Ganondorf that breaks out, slaughters the Sages and Knights of Hyrule, and because no-one can stop him the Gods flood Hyrule in order to stop him. aka the Wind Waker Ganondorf. The one who sees Young Link in front of him, spills his guts about hating the wind, and then shows a deep seeded hatred for a boy just by the way he looks.

The other Ganondorf exists because he was in Hyrule at the time Link was sent back to. Link is the only one who form hops. Everyone else lives like nothing is happening. Ganondorf A is trapped outside of time and exists because he always has. Ganondorf B just attacked Hyrule and no longer has the means to take over (Triforce of Power) and is put on trial, gets the attempted execution, Gods do their prank and give him the favor of the Gods, he gets sealed away, uses Zant, breaks free, tries to take over again but has no anger towards Link because Link didn't do anything for him. He tried using a kid who looked like him years and years ago, but that kid wasn't the one beating his face in with a sword and then allowing people to seal him up.

I believe Young Link, at the end of Ocarina of Time, returns the Ocarina to Zelda, tells her the story of what happened in the future since they were working on a plan to stop Ganondorf, and when he tells her he is leaving to find a friend she gives him the Ocarina and tells him that the Goddess of Time will protect him. It just feels better that way, IMO.

No-one is there to stop Ganondorf in Wind Waker's beginning because the Hero of Time is long since dead and could really only travel backwards in time in a very limited sense. No Link is present during the execution of Twilight Princess's Ganondorf because he's off trying to find that friend of his in Termina.

Oh, would like to also mention that I'm fully aware of the large amount of holes in this theory. I'm cool with debating about them, since this is super civil and all, but I just don't want to give off that impression that "IM RIT UR RONG1!" or anything. I like the single timeline theory because the one part it influence isn't split between "Link goes AMAZING" and "Uhh...he screwed it up and left?'.


Posted by 
 on: 02/12/11, 02:05:49  - Edited by 
 on: 02/12/11, 02:13:55
missypissy said:
Now, how can there be two Ganondorfs...this is because of the Sage factor. Ganondorf is sealed in the Evil Realm which exists outside of time. No matter what year, day, minute, or even second it is on Hyrule Ganondorf is not influenced by it in this realm. No matter where Link is in time, Ganondorf is still in that realm. This is the Ganondorf that breaks out, slaughters the Sages and Knights of Hyrule, and because no-one can stop him the Gods flood Hyrule in order to stop him. aka the Wind Waker Ganondorf. The one who sees Young Link in front of him, spills his guts about hating the wind, and then shows a deep seeded hatred for a boy just by the way he looks.

Took me a while to figure out what you mean, but I think I've got it now.

By your logic, the Evil Realm not only exists outside of time, it exists outside of... existance. What you're saying is that when Link gets sent back in time, the future of Ganondorf taking over Hyrule (in OoT) is erased, correct? Then that means that Ganondorf taking over Hyrule is only just one possibility of a future. This means that every single possible timeline- every SINGLE choice that anybody could EVER make- could possibly result in someone or something getting sealed within the Evil Realm. With an infinite amount of people getting sealed within the Evil Realm, there would be an infinite amount of people breaking out of the Evil Realm and wreaking havoc on Hyrule at any given time.


Posted by 
 on: 02/12/11, 02:36:00
Secret_Tunnel said:
Are you saying that the ocean itself was soaked away by all the new trees, or that all of the islands were sort of joined together? Because if they were joined together than it would be even harder for someone to, say, go underwater and retrieve the Master Sword.

Yeah, it would definitely be either 1) the ocean was soaked away, or 2) the roots of the trees burrowed under the structures of Old Hyrule, bringing them to the surface (which may not make as much sense, but it could still work).

Secret_Tunnel said:
That's how it works with the Master Sword at least. But I would think that the Sage of Time playing the Ocarina of Time could kind of break the rules- at least when it comes to the Hero of Time. In Majora's Mask, Link goes back in time constantly to change the future using the Ocarina of Time. Unless Termina has different time travel rules, then it's totally possible for there to be different types of time travel.

1. Zelda's not necessarily the Sage of Time. We were never told what kind of a sage she was. We were only told that she is the seventh sage, the leader of the sages. There is no in-game mention of the title "Sage of Time". 2. Zelda uses her sage powers along with "Zelda's Lullaby" to send Link back in time. In MM Link and Tatl appeal to the goddess of time and borrow her powers along with the "Song of Time" to send Link back in time. So it makes sense that there would be differences between OoT and MM as far as time travel goes. The Song of Storms confirmed that time travel to the past only fulfills predestined events. It isn't possible to change anything by going back to the past. So just as using the Master Sword doesn't change anything, it would make sense that Zelda using the Ocarina doesn't change anything. After all, Link can't go back in time and do something different as that would erase the adult timeline, not preserve it. The split should originate from Link's changed actions, not from Zelda sending Link back in time. And then there's the extra Link to contend to. It just makes sense if everything continues doing what it was supposed to do.

Secret_Tunnel said:
And his Hyrulean counterpart, assuming all Terminians have one.

His Hyrulean counterpart was the running man, and the running man wasn't a Postman.

Secret_Tunnel said:
Probably back to the Sacred Realm. I suppose it could have gone inside of the King or something too though.

Yeah, I also believe that it went back to the Sacred Realm. However, since I am operating first and foremost with a single timeline, I've got some evidence to back that up. In ALttP it was prophesied that only the one truly deserving of the Triforce would be able to take it out of the Sacred Realm. However, OoT Ganondorf was able to get around that rule because he only took a third of it out. So I think that when the Triforce was brought back together and made whole again, it returned to the Sacred Realm to await the fulfillment of that prophecy mentioned in ALttP.

Secret_Tunnel said:
Do they really though? From what I remember (and I could totally be wrong), the title "Hero of Time" is never mentioned in Twilight Princess. As for Majora's Mask, it only ever says that the legend of the Hero of Time is held dearly to the Royal Family- which it would be, since Link told Zelda and probably no one else about it.

Link was bestowed with a Hero's Shield. TWW refers to the child Link being known as a hero throughout the land (even though in the adult timeline the child Link did nothing except let Ganondorf take the Triforce of Power and take over Hyrule). TP mentions how there are innumerable tales of the legendary hero throughout Hyrule and TP Link reminds Renado of him. So while they never refer to the hero as the Hero of Time in TP, I would be very surprised if he wasn't. They never referred to the shiny golden triangles in the Lanayru cut scene as the Triforce, but we KNOW it was the Triforce in that cut scene. TP didn't always acknowledge the things of legend's proper titles.

Secret_Tunnel said:
The King didn't necessarily believe Zelda, it's just that Link never collected the three spiritual stones and never opened the Door of Time. No matter how or when Ganondorf ended up revealing himself and attacking, without the Triforce of Power it's safe to say that he would eventually fall to the might of the entire Hylian army.

But he managed to defeat the knights of Hyrule and run the Royal Family out of Castle Town without the Triforce of Power. Do you really think that Hyrule has another army hidden away somewhere that we never see in OoT? If the guy is powerful enough to kill/mortally doom two deities without the Triforce of Power, I'm not sure that the army of Hyrule is really that much of a threat. (In fact, I'm not sure that the Triforce of Power even gives Ganondorf much in the way of power at all.)

Secret_Tunnel said:
Same guy. He and Zelda are already friends and everything, just like in FS.

But what about the fact that the games take place years apart and yet Link looks the exact same in both games? What about the fact that Kaepora Gaebora tells Link that he has now accepted the fate of the hero, even though at that point in the game he was just doing more or less exactly what FS Link had done at that time? Did Link do X in FS, and not accept the fate of the hero in that game, only to do X years later and suddenly accept the fate of the hero despite doing nothing differently?

Secret_Tunnel said:
This line from the Japanese Link to the Past manual:

"The man's name was Ganondorf, and his common name was Ganon of the race of evil thieves. Indeed, the King of Evil Ganon, the one who has threatened Hyrule so, was born at this time."

Hmm. Well I've never had a big problem with the idea that LoZ Ganon is ALttP Ganon (except for the different titles, no discernible reason for LoZ Ganon being a monster this time around since he doesn't have any of the things that turned any of the past Ganons into monsters, and fact that ALttP Ganon would have to be resurrected in order to be LoZ Ganon despite the failed resurrection in the Oracles games), but I could see it working under certain circumstances. I just think it makes more sense/you have to explain away fewer holes if the two are separate Ganons.

missypissy said:
Ganondorf is sealed in the Evil Realm which exists outside of time. No matter what year, day, minute, or even second it is on Hyrule Ganondorf is not influenced by it in this realm.

I'm not so sure about this. After all, didn't Link age while he was in the Sacred Realm? If the realm was outside of time and unaffected by it, how did Link grow 7 years older while he was sleeping inside of it? Also, if the Sacred Realm isn't influenced by time, what decides what time someone pops out at when exiting?


Posted by 
 on: 02/12/11, 02:43:16
V_s said:
The split should originate from Link's changed actions, not from Zelda sending Link back in time.

To me, the whole reason for the split is Zelda sending Link back in time in a different way than Link had been doing it. Because you're right, if Link changed something without a split timeline then the timeline would just be overwritten. I guess I view the two timelines as not really two possibilities, but two seperate universes.

It makes me wonder, though. If it is a single timeline, then Link would have to live through Ganon taking over Hyrule, knowing there's nothing he can do about it.

V_s said:
TWW refers to the child Link being known as a hero throughout the land (even though in the adult timeline the child Link did nothing except let Ganondorf take the Triforce of Power and take over Hyrule).

Except it says the WW Link has "come of age." Now, he's obviously not an adult. But I don't see why they would celebrate child Link as the Hero of Time when he only theoretically saved Hyrule. It wasn't until adult Link showed up that any saving actually got done. I would think that adult Link would have upstaged child Link at that point. It could be that on Outset Island kids are considered adults at an earlier age. It's hard to tell when we don't know exactly what ages all the young Links are (OoT Link seems about 11, WW Link seems about 14 or 15, other than his voice).

V_s said:
But he managed to defeat the knights of Hyrule and run the Royal Family out of Castle Town without the Triforce of Power. Do you really think that Hyrule has another army hidden away somewhere that we never see in OoT?

It was a surprise attack. Everyone trusted him, so when he struck no one had any clue what was going on. Once he revealed himself and lost the element of surprise, I'm sure all the races of Hyrule could have banded together to take him down.

V_s said:
But what about the fact that the games take place years apart and yet Link looks the exact same in both games? What about the fact that Kaepora Gaebora tells Link that he has now accepted the fate of the hero, even though at that point in the game he was just doing more or less exactly what FS Link had done at that time? Did Link do X in FS, and not accept the fate of the hero in that game, only to do X years later and suddenly accept the fate of the hero despite doing nothing differently?

Heh, you're probably right.


Posted by 
 on: 02/12/11, 03:40:37
Wind Waker Link is 13 and Ocarina of Time Young Link is 11 or 12, can't really remember. I do know that Wind Waker's "celebration" matches neither.

Now I can't remember where I got the idea that it was "beyond time". Ocarina of Time just states that his spirit has been stuck there for 7 years until he became of age. Plus Ganondorf breaks out a hundred or hundreds of years later in Wind Waker and hasn't seemed to age at all from what we could tell. Though it is called a parallel world countless times...now I doubt myself!!!

As for what determines what time someone ends up in, I just think of it like that silly stream Sheik compared time to. One Ganondorf is just sitting at the bank of the stream unaffected by what's going on while the other is going downstream with time. The one going downstream ends up drowning and the other jumps in at a later point pissed as all hell. Then dies. ;p


Posted by 
 on: 02/12/11, 04:17:36  - Edited by 
 on: 02/12/11, 04:20:16
As much as I'd want it to all flow together, is it really that crazy to state each game is just a reinterpretation of a basic idea? Young boy goes out on an adventure, discovers new lands, people, powers, and evil. In the end he faces true evil knowing he is the one to do it. I remember watching the GT Zelda timeline series and thinking, "it shouldn't be this hard to piece together a legitimate story". That said, I still really enjoy all of the ideas that come about talking about the timeline.


Posted by 
 on: 02/12/11, 05:28:45
Frankly as much as I love the Legend of Zelda, I'm not sure why people stress out so much about the timeline. Just enjoy the games.


Posted by 
 on: 02/12/11, 09:49:16  - Edited by 
 on: 02/12/11, 09:52:45
@Abdooooo
@chrisbg99

Figuring out the timeline is part of enjoying the games! It gives them infinite re-think value. That's one reason I don't like judging games based on how long they are. A game like Braid might only take you about three hours to beat, but how long will it stay with you? When you buy a game, you're not paying for a time-suck, you're paying for an experience.


Posted by 
 on: 02/12/11, 19:04:10
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