Wait, Sekiro doesn't have any RPG elements? SOLD! I wanted to get into Dark Souls because of how amazing everyone says the worldbuilding and combat are, but having to stare at screens of numbers to beat the artificially inflated difficulty didn't jibe with me, and too much character customization leaves me lost.

I didn't really do much with customization but Dark Souls is definitely one of those games where a boss can be super hard and you feel like you ran into a wall then you read a FAQ and it is like "it will be easy if you use this one weapon that has a specific property this boss is weak against but you can only get it from this one NPC on the other end of the map who only appeared when you did this one thing on the other other end of the map after finding the secret room on the other other end of the map" and it is like ok, that's one way to do it but who the heck would just stumble upon any of this?! Mind you none of that is NECESSARY, you can always use skill and / or just over-level yourself, and you can rely on summoning NPCs and real life players for help (I definitely summoned NPCs a lot, the real life players not quite as much), but it feels like the game kind of wants you to play a certain way but is way too obtuse for you to figure it out on your own easily.

I actually really like this game, but I also think it has a lot of issues that people kind of just ignore or justify because it is such a bold, revolutionary game. I kind of want to write a review when I finish it. I feel like I have a ton to say about it that would require sitting down and putting into clear words. I used to wonder why a game that EVERYONE was talking about like it was the BEST THING EVER was only sitting in the 8s on Gamerankings, but I think I get it now. I'd probably score it in the 9s but I'm not sure where. It definitely does have issues though, and I feel like it has the most hardcore fans ever so I'm scared to even say that, BUT IT DOES HAVE ISSUES.

In theory, Dark Souls's obtuseness is the big reason that I want to love it, but in practice it seems like everybody who plays the game just looks up everything on a wiki anyway. The whole crowdsourced problem solving trick in games might give them a nice live feel for the first week or two that they're out, but that effect goes away once everything has been solved by the community. To me, a game ought to be totally solvable without using an outside resource, and it's the game's job to help me figure everything out in the most rewarding way possible. Like a mystery novel!

I mean, obviously some people figure a lot of this stuff out on their own, but I have no idea how. A shit ton of trial and error?

Again, most of that stuff is optional, there is always a pretty clear path forward if you just want to get to the end of the game, but if you want to do a deep dive and really get the full experience, you almost need to use a FAQ.

Like, minor spoilers... but there is an entire world hidden inside a painting in a room that is like halfway through the game that you need a specific item on you in order to activate the painting, and the item is literally in the place you start the game, except it ISN'T there when you start, it just somehow appears there later, so you just have to sort of think "hey if I go back to the exact start of the game maybe I'll randomly find new stuff", except there is no clear way to even get back to the start or any real indication that it's possible (unless I missed it), so you end up having to jump off an elevator midway in its movement cycle and then roll off a cliff onto something that looks like it is maybe just part of the architecture and not a real thing you can get onto when you have done nothing like this before in the game, and even then you can't get into the world unless you have the key (admittedly it is kind of tough to miss the key if you got that far, but still, it IS possible to miss), and then go back to the way beginning, get the item, and... yeah go all the way back to the world with the painting and get sucked in. No freaking way would I have ever figured this out without a FAQ, but then I would have missed an entire world.

There is also a lot of weirdly obtuse ways of obtaining certain weapons, armor and spells that are super easy to not only miss, but do the wrong thing and make it permanently impossible to ever get them. Same thing with NPCs and summons, you can just fuck yourself over and then not be able to do certain summons even though the bosses can be REALLY annoying without them.

But yeah, I could go on and on. I'll save it for the review I may or may not ever write!

There may not be need for a review, as you've already convinced me that I shouldn't get this game.

@Mop it up THE WORLD DOESN'T JUST REVOLVE AROUND YOU.

I would definitely say this is not a game for everyone though. It is notorious for being "hard" and it is definitely challenging at times but honestly this isn't the hardest game I have ever played or anything, it just has a lot of things built into it that make it not particularly player-friendly, and that could probably be mistake for "hard". It's more like... built for masochists or something.

But I'm not a masochist and I like it, so I'd have to really kind of think about the pros and cons and figure out what does and doesn't work for me and why.

I always see smart designers say that Dark Souls's difficulty is probably the least interesting thing about the game and is more of a consequence of other decisions. It isn't tough-as-nails for the sake of it (or so I hear).

Jonathan Blow always talks about how his goal is making an interesting game regardless of how difficult it is. That's why some of his puzzles are really easy and some are really hard, he's just going for whatever best showcases that property of the mechanics

I'd definitely say the difficulty isn't ultimately what appeals to me. I do like how the difficulty makes you pace your attempt to exploration and movement and fighting... the fact that for large stretches of the game a single common enemy can be a real threat and letting a few of them surround you is definite death... how you can't always just run up and jam the attack button like you can in a lot of games... that is pretty interesting to me. You need to be very um, I can't think of the word I want right now, measured? in your approach. The whole pacing of the game is very different than something like Devil May Cry or whatever, which I find interesting.

But honestly a lot of times what actually happened is certain parts were too hard until I either found the right way to cheese them, or found the right gear, or leveled up a bunch, or just summoned AI / human helpers who did most of the hard work for me... and none of that gives you the sense of accomplishment you get from truly overcoming a challenge.

Oh geez, Bed of Chaos. So freaking annoying. Not even "tough" per se just a lot of running for a couple minutes straight from the bonfire to get to the boss to get instantly hit off the edge and die and get to do it all over again. Indie games got very good at not making you waste time getting back into the fight, and Dark Souls is sort of the opposite. There are sometimes no bonfires anywhere near a boss.

And then I'm reading FAQs and people are talking about having high poise, and it's like... WTF is poise? This game is really bad about teaching you important things. But yeah apparently it is a stat that helps with knockbacks and such which is pretty important against this boss.

So yeah beat that annoying ass Bed of Chaos (thank GOD you don't have to do it all in one life) so all that is basically left is the end area / end boss, EXCEPT... there is also the DLC area, which apparently you need to do before the end if you're going to do it, so I went there. And supposedly it's mostly just a bunch of tough boss fights which sounds uh, intimidating? I beat the first one without TOO much trouble but some of the upcoming ones are supposed to be some of the toughest bosses in the game.

Well, whatever the case, almost done? Maybe?! If any of the DLC bosses are way too tough I might just say fuck it and just go fight the end boss instead. It's a great game but I'm not invested in it enough to be a completionist. Feeling ready to move on...

Yeah I fought Nito awhile back. I was too lazy to write much but he was part of this:

Zero said:

Welp, it's definitely been smooth sailing since those two jerks. Burned through a few more areas without much trouble.

I actually didn't find the area leading up to Bed of Chaos too bad, honestly no area has really pushed me since Anor Londo. I'm probably super overleveled at this point because I have basically been strolling through most of the areas... more or less. I just found how far away the closest bonfire was (unless I missed one, I was using the one that is the shortcut back to the Demon area) from Bed of Chaos annoying, and somehow the fact that there are barely any enemies to slow you down on the way almost makes it worse, it's just a LOT of pointless running every time you die.

@Hero_Of_Hyrule Yeah that one is further than the one I used... or at least, about the same distance with way more enemies to manage. With the one I use there are really only a handful of bugs, that huge stone demon thing on the bridge and a couple of those slow moving fire guys to get past. I just ran the whole way and never took a hit except for the stone demon sometimes.

But it was a boring run.

So both Kalameet and Manus are pretty annoying. I got Manus down to about half once but then he combo-ed me to death. I know you can summon Sif in there but everyone says it is a waste of time because Sif doesn't do much and Manus mostly ignores him.

Actually one of the things I realized is that I don't even particularly like the bosses in Dark Souls. I'm not sure I see them as a strong point of the game. Pretty much all of them have one or two moves or combos that can take you from full health to dead in an instant, which is annoying when you're doing ok and then BAM, dead. With that said, if I could just start the boss fight right from the boss fight like most every other modern game I'd probably find them easier to digest, but nah, you have to run from a bonfire that is 2-3 or more minutes away every freaking time. Blah. And so many are too easy to cheese or summon help or whatever that here I am near basically the end of the game and I still don't really know HOW to fight bosses in this game when there is no obvious cheese and no (or worthless) summons available, so like... getting to die right away and then having to spend a bunch of time to get back and then die right away again is not fun. I mean I guess I'm not dying RIGHT away on these bosses but still, it's like... how does the game actually benefit by not just having bonfires right near the bosses? Or better yet you can just start the boss right away again when you die? I get that it is trying to be "old school" but most of the time the bonfire is close enough that it isn't really a challenge getting to the boss again (and most enemies can be run past), but far enough that it is freaking annoying.

I MAY just say F it and move on. These are optional DLC bosses anyway, no point in stressing out over them. Hell if I wasn't using FAQs this whole time I would have never found the DLC world to begin with. And I'm really, really ready to move on from this game. I think I have like 80 or 90 hours into it now. If it were possible I'd go fight the main end boss and come back to the DLC if I decided to keep trying at it, but I read that once you beat the main boss you go straight into NG+ and the DLC area can't be accessed again (unless you get there again playing through the whole game again.)

AW YEAH BEAT MANUS.

People were saying you can't really tank him, so I spent all this time leaving up light gear to try a light build, but I really couldn't dodge his attacks at all, so I switched back to my heavy build and tanked the shit out of him. Some of his magic attacks he starts doing at about half health were one hit KOing me but once I decided to just heal every single time he started doing magic attacks he was a bit easier.

Even though people say Kalameet is easier than Manus (in fact some say Manus is the toughest boss in the game), I was having more trouble with him since my style is get in close and tank the shit out of enemies but he is hard to get in close with (but also hard to stay back and hit with magic, which barely hurts him anyway), so... we'll see if I can do better now that I'm a little bit (but barely) higher level now.

AND FINISHED. THE WHOLE GAME. Whew.

Kalameet was a bit of a tough one. I pretty much cheesed / tanked my way through most of the bosses but that wasn't working with Kalameet. Ended up switching to a light build for quick movement and armed myself with an upgraded light crossbow and tons of heavy bolts and just dodged and shot, dodged and shot. It's not too bad with this technique though it takes forever, probably took like 50-60 hits or so?

Gwyn is probably tough if you fight him alone, I tried him alone a few times and was doing ok but not great. Everyone says you really need to learn to parry but I never really parried the whole game and my timing was all off. So I summoned Solaire and he is sort of a piece of cake with Solaire, at least at the level and with the gear I had. My strategy was basically just don't even try to attack if he was focusing on me, block and avoid and let Solaire attack him, and then once he goes for Solaire hit him in the back a few times until he aggroes on me again, rinse, repeat. He went down pretty fast (though Solaire almost died, might have ended poorly if I got stuck alone.)

It feels good to have finished but man I feel exhausted. Fun game but definitely NOT doing NG+. And honestly, probably won't ever play Dark Souls 2 or 3. 1 was a great experience but it's such a draining one too. Not a nice pick up and play game. MAYBE I'll play Bloodborne or Sekiro. But not anytime soon. Need a break from this kind of thing.

Incidentally, for such a long game the ending is like... super short.

Anyway, time for bed!

@Hero_Of_Hyrule I definitely looked it up. It seems unlikely that most people would figure this stuff out on their own, at least, not first time through!

I picked this up again on a lark (for the first time since giving it a try in 2013) and have fallen in love with it. Something about it has finally clicked with me, and I feel foolish for not playing it sooner! I guess this is the experience of revisiting a book that you were too young for on your first attempt?

Sekiro and Elden Ring must have been my on-ramp to enjoying Dark Souls, because I find it way more legible now. Sekiro taught me the abstruse adventure game structure, and Elden Ring taught me the character building.

Neither of those aspects are that interesting on their own, but Dark Souls weaves them together beautifully. Your understanding of world lore, world layout, RPG systems, and combat are all correlated. By contrast, Sekiro probably should have been a linear action game with no items or obscure sidequests. I can only imagine how mindblowing Dark Souls's structure must have been for people who didn't get onboarded through Sekiro's simpler imitation of it, and am disappointed I didn't experience it that way my first time.

@Secret_Tunnel
One of my favourite youtubers is Lil Indigestion who does entirely blind playthrough a of games. So no chat help at all and no looking things up. And he has avoided the gaming community for a lot of it so he hasn't even picked up on things through osmosis.
Anyway, he did Dark Souls 1 last year and it was always so interesting how he chose to tackle certain things, or the order in which he went to places.

@Secret_Tunnel I was blown away at how hands off the game was and how satisfying it was to progress. Unforgettable experience.

Okay, I rang the first bell and have no clue where to go, other than banging my head against New Londo more. And now I read this thread, and I see that my first bell was Zero's second bell? And in his very first post, he talks about "Bell Gargoyles," which I've never heard of!?

...did I completely miss an entire giant area of this game!? I've been back and forth across the whole map so many times!

I'm loving it though. Like Pogue says, this game's context insensitivity makes it magical. You never break out into some weird other state that's discontinuous with the rest of the game, it's all just items and combat and RPG systems, and the whole world obeys that internal logic relentlessly. I can see why people said this is the new Zelda.

The bells don't have to be rung in order but I think the gargoyles have to be defeated to get to one of the bells? I'm guessing this means you haven't gone through snekworld yet so... there is a lot of game left.