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Is combat in 3D Zelda overly complex? [roundtable]
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03/18/16, 06:23 Edited: 03/18/16, 06:24
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I don't think complexity is the issue. It really isn't perfect. I really do think the item management is often the largest culprit in the games--it's a pretty big design flaw that takes you right out of the experience, I feel. The actual swordplay, as far as the player is concerned, is just the right level of complexity, I feel. Specifically, Wind Waker, which seems (to me) to have the most fluid battles. It always seems clunky when you start mixing more items into it, though.
I'll be treating Skyward Sword as more tangential instead of a direct progression from the four OoT-type games.
The inputs in the four OoT-type Zeldas are all a pretty logical progression from the original Zelda concept, I feel. One button for swordplay was how the original did it. OoT added one for a 'special' attack and then modifiers to the main one (that weren't all that necessary). Wind Waker made that special button even... specialer with the parry system. I feel Twilight Princess over-complicated this system--particularly since they felt it necessary to remind you on-screen how to do the extra actions every time they were available. The problem with swordplay, I feel, is the results aren't all that satisfying. The enemies don't react well to your sword. I'd love to see the enemies try to dodge, lean away, or occasionally block you (and depict it through animation, not just a shield). This was done just a little bit with Ganondorf, but it really should be more the norm. I think the enemies are the problem, not the controls.
The items really mess up combat, though. They need to simplify the items into as elegant of a system as the swordplay. This sounds blasphemous against Zelda, I guess, but the items are all too specialized. Each one should have more use and there should be less of them. I'd actually enjoy maybe three equip-able items altogether. Period. Any others can be non-combat touchscreen presses.
For instance, I love the boomerang, bow, and hookshot. They're all pretty cool. But if you equip all three, well, you can't float any more. Or bomb stuff. Or grapple. Why should we have to juggle like that? The hookshot and grappling hook could easily be lumped in with the bow. Arrow with a rope attached? Awesome. Retractable mechanical arrow-like thing? Awesome. You wouldn't even need to pull something stupid like Twilight Princess and give you a second clawshot! You could have the retractable thing connect to your belt and let you fire a second one from there. Also, fire and ice arrows are cool--except mostly useless!
The boomerang is more unique, I feel, in that it primarily stuns large enemies and can attack/do stuff laterally. I'm not sure if it could be made redundant, but we could take something that Twilight Princess did right (bomb arrows) and place them here. Instead of shooting bombs-on-arrows, carry bombs out with the boomerang. It's already been done in the games where you can pick up and carry bombs elsewhere from off the ground, why not just make that a native ability? I know everyone likes the idea of setting bombs and running (I guess), but launching bombs laterally at enemies--even behind cover--would be a ton of fun. You could also do more interesting things with bomb-able walls and such. So should the bombs go away as a dedicated item? They could. And, you could tie the grappling hook's stealing ability to the non-lethal usage of the boomerang (with a lower droprate maybe) to encourage something other than blowing them up.
Magic attacks? Bottles? All of that should be down on the touchscreen panel and not even able to be equipped.
So more reactionary gameplay with the swordplay--I think it would feel more natural--and consolidation of items to a few key ones and just add functionality to THOSE to eliminate the item swapping (though you'd have to do a bit of toggling on the actual items, but ah well, it's still a better system than what's in place). |
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The way I see it, there's two ways of looking at this: The 'old school' way of just slashing what's in front of you effectively turns combat into a button mashing (or Wiimote swinging) exercise. Simple, easy to grasp, but ultimately perhaps just a wee bit shallow? So sure, you can get rid of Z-targeting and autolock onto enemies then go to town with your sword. But that's boring and repetitive IMO. The core of the Zelda series has been it's various items. If you restrict yourself simply to sword combat, you lose a lot of the game's appeal. The other end of the spectrum, is the one where various items have their different uses and advantages. Yes it makes you think a little more, but it keeps things interesting. Ideally though, enemies should be designed such that they can be defeated in a number of different ways, but it's *easier* with one method or item than another. That could tie into both progression and incentive to find optional items. Say for example the Flame Rod was an optional item. And you go up against those ice enemies. Option 1: Sword combat. Lets you cause slow chip damage, which will ultimately defeat them, but only after multiple strikes. Option 2: Megaton hammer. Same as the sword, but less hits required due to greater kinetic damage. Option 3: If you were lucky/good enough to find it, the Flame Rod which instantly melts them Option 4: Lets say the Fire Arrows- Which are still locked away for another 3 dungeons  . Only the rod offers an early counter. Now of course the multitude of weapons thus available will naturally impact on the control scheme. So I'll ask the same question that went unanswered in the other thread: How do you handle all those different weapons at once? It's not feasible to map every item to a separate quick-access button. There still has to be some sort of selection process for those items, whether that be done via subscreens or selection on the tablet. The other option is to come up with 'combo' commands like holding R trigger and a D-left does something, whilst L shoulder and Right stick click does something else, etc etc. But that's pretty damn complex and just gives you a whole list of various combo commands to memorize. It's not ideal. I honestly think Zelda's system strikes the right balance between accessibility and flexibility. Some minor enhancements like touchscreen selections help for sure, but we're hardly reinventing the wheel there, just coming up with a harder wearing tyre. EDIT: @Cubed777 Ha, looks like the number of items in play is what's contributing to our different philosophies here  . I guess that's a question in and of itself. Zelda with more items or less? I rather like seeing the new creative stuff that gets put into (some) of the new games to be honest. Stuff like the Spinner or the magnetic gloves. |
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You know, I hardly ever used the Z targeting method while in combat, even in Ocarina of Time. I just go in close to whichever baddie I want to fight and viola, I beat the baddie up and kill it. Only time I usually Z target is when using the slingshot or someother likewise weapon, so I hit/kill the baddie on the first try. On the very rare occasion, when surrounded by many enemies and I want to focus on a particular baddie, I might use Z targeting. I would say, typically, throughout any 3d Zelda game, I might use the Z targeting feature maybe 5% of the time while battling foes. Most of the time I actually forget the feature exists.
Just thinking about the main topic of this post, if anything the combat in 3d Zelda games couldn't be any simpler, unless Link automatically would fight and kill a baddie when within a certain distance, without any input from the user, but what fun would that be?
I feel the combat in 3d Zelda games is fine. Its not outdated, nor overly complicated, nor does it need to be changed. If anything the Z targeting is there for those, noobs, little kids or people who just plain suck at combat in a 3d gaming space. |
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If anything it's too simplistic. Your sub weapons are almost always used as keys for locks, or are used to manipulate the weakness of one enemy. Outside of their dungeon, they tend to be fairly useless as well for the most part. And when it comes to sword combat, I don't think Z-targeting is the issue. Look at a game like Dark Souls, which has a targeting system as well. The targeting system doesn't stop the combat from being fun and engaging, but it also doesn't rely on it. Actually, Dark Souls is a pretty nice comparison here because I think Zelda could take several things from it. Parrying would be a great addition to sword combat, and would make combat require much more skill. Enemies would have to be changed to not die as easily though. I also like what Shadowlink said about how your sword should still be able to kill say an ice enemy, but other items will be more effective if you happen to have them. And if you have the parrying I mentioned from earlier, if you were skilled enough with that killing them with the sword might be even easier. If combat in Zelda is to be changed for the better, it needs to stop staying so far in the past. Combat in 3D Zelda games has barely changed since Ocarina of Time and has gotten easier over time. Bring it up to date with modern 3rd person action adventure games, and add more difficulty back into the games. Then, it will be more fun and engaging. |
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