* * * * * Chrono Trigger - Week 5 * * * * *

(Plain English: Scroll down to the bottom of the "OP" if you're lagging behind for previous weeks)


TABLE OF CONTENTS
Prologue:
i Okami Club
ii Fire Emblem Club

Epic Center:
01 Ogre Battle
24 Secret of Mana
39 Phantasy Star IV (cont'd)
67 Earthbound (cont'd)
99 Breath of Fire II (cont'd)
110 Paper Mario (cont'd)
123 Golden Sun (cont'd)
136 Chrono Trigger

(ALL VINTAGE EC GAMES ARE CONTINUED IN THEIR OFFICIAL DISCUSSION THREADS!)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


Hello, true believers! Welcome to Negative World's newest RPG-centric Club Hub, springing off the heels of the Fire Emblem Club. Way back when, Nintendo Power introduced a monthly walkthrough / in depth Role Play Game section (right around the beefiest SNES RPG era), but since they aren't around anymore to use it, Negative World will bring it out of the ashes, dust it off, and roll with it (two things of note: #1, this is not in reaction to Nintendo Force Magazine at all -- I know that because I thought of it in the shower this morning, so THERE; and #2, I just looked up "Epic Center RPG" on Yahoo, and there is apparently another RPG-based site that has that, ugh. I guess we're looking at a "Ghostbusters" / "Real Ghostbusters" thing now... Whatever..).

For anyone who grew playing SNES RPGs, and were a fan of them, they surely resonated to the point where they still hold office as some of your favorite games of your entire videogame life, systems, generations, and decades later. The NW Epic Center (run primarily by myself, with the aid of some special friends occasionally) will help to expose some of those games that didn't quite get the recognition they deserved, and also to relive some of the greatest games EVER as we play through them again -- together -- and open up a whole new dialogue on these lost treasures.


Next up..



Chrono Trigger is held by many (myself included) as The Greatest RPG of All Time, pun not intended. It is a benchmark title in the genre, and even after 20 years the game is discussed daily and held in high regard, even in the face of juiced-up, HD "masterpieces." Is simpler sometimes better? Sure, but we're not talking "Dragon Warrior" simple here; we're talking 16-bit perfection at its finest. I'm personally a bit worried about pursuing this game once more; it's been a long time since my last jog through it, and I'm afraid I might have the rosiest pair of glasses that any shot of nostalgia could ever produce. We find out later this month, for better or for worse. (C'mon, it's gonna be fine -- we're talking Chrono Trigger here!! THE BEST, JERRY, THE BEST!!)

Sunday, August 30th marks the start of Week 1 (if you prefer to start your own quest AFTER Sunday, like Monday, or Tuesday, or Wednesday, thats fine!). Golden Sun ran 6 Weeks. GameDadGrant will be our DUNGEON MASTER for this one, and we figure the playthrough to run about the same length. Less than two months. I'm told the total quest should last you between 20 and 30 hours.


See ya soon!!


CHRONO TRIGGER

Dungeon Master: GameDadGrant

You Did It! Chrono Trigger Complete:
VofEscaflowne
Scrawnton
Mop it up
Ludist210


Week 4 Complete:
GameDadGrant
mrbiggsly
DapperDave

Week 3 Complete:
Mr_Mustache (and Mrs_Mustache!)

Week 2 Complete:
Smerd
Dark weres
warerare
sirmastersephiroth

Week 1 Complete:
Anand

Triggermen:
HammerLord
Koovaps

Week 1
Week 2
Week 3
Week 4
Week 5

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URL to share (right click and copy)

The last little bit of the game really is a "Buzz Buzz memorial road" as just about every enemy group will almost require you to activate PSI Shield Σ (not Ω, if you want to keep them alive to PSI-Magnet 'em on a slow-burn).

One of the enemies, if you mirror it, will allow you to steal PSI Caramels. You'll want to make sure you're powerful enough to fool around in these fights. They can steal 'em right back if kept alive.

EDIT: Oh right, if you're having trouble with the boss, SPY on 'em, they're vulnerable to something which will make surviving that last sequence significantly easier, if you didn't bring Night Pendants along.

(Ending Discussion) Have you tried giving Jeff the Letter from Tony ("use" the letter while standing in front of Tony) without reading it first (ie: "use" the letter without standing in front of Tony?) He assumes you read it anyway! Whatta jerk!

So... what's next? Breath of Fire 2? When are we starting?

Dark Weres said:

So... what's next? Breath of Fire 2? When are we starting?

GOOD QUESTION!!

I just came here to post/ask about it. Would the BOF2 interested be OK with waiting until December?
Do you REALLY wanna go on November 3rd, 1st Sunday in November?

I'm FINE with both; just with NewGameBer approaching, and Shocktoberfest riding me, and trying to get Castlevanias finished at the same time, and BATMAN launching tonight, and stuffff, I feel all pressed for time, haha. YES, most of those games should be done by then, but I dunno; it'd be nice to breathe for a sec! NewGameBer will be going in November, too. We took off for August, maybe we should take off for November, too?

Are you opposed, Dark Weres? Anyone else?

If you wait until December I probably will play. If you start next weekend I'm definitely out.

@DeputyVanHalen

Alright, 2+ votes for "Wait 'til December for Breath of Fire II."

I could go either way. I'm on the fence about Batman, as I want to vote for western third party support on the Wii U, but Warner Bros is currently under fire for the "sexualized suicide scandal" last I heard. I'm almost definitely getting Assassin's Creed 4 for the Wii U, and definitely getting Watch_Dogs for Wii U.

On the other hand, I'd like to push for CAPCOM support of Nintendo, as they've never done their disc-DLC or other scumbag moves with Nintendo, AND a lot of their wares have gone on sale on the Wii U eShop lately, so I'd like to push for the fans to send a clear message to CAPCOM to just shack up with Nintendo already and make more and better Wii U exclusives, so having a bunch of activity on BoF2 (and/or other CAPCOM games on the Wii U) might be a good way to do that. I'm probably picking up ResEvil Revelations for Wii U ASAP, so I could just do that for NewGameBer to have my cake and eat it too.

Dark Weres said:

and definitely getting Watch_Dogs for Wii U.

That's been delayed on all platforms until Q2 2014, so that won't affect the next Epic Center at all.

I think I'd prefer to wait until December as well because of NewGameBer and another title that I can't think of...what's the name of it again...Merrio?

So this is the last week? I have my Top 10 Earthbound enemies list ready and waiting to post, just going to let this thing finish up. Didn't want to spoil the enemies to anyone in the midst of Epic Center.

So overall, how'd you guys like the game itself? And the ending? EB's end sequence sticks out to me for a number of reasons: *spoilers, obviously*

-The battle with Giygas has an unconventional way of winning. I understand why this might frustrate some players, but I really like when games bring a deeper side into their final battles, instead of just having a boss with a ton of high stats. It makes the fight feel more personal, and in this case, I thought the "Pray" command was very appropriate given that most players will be put on the brink of death before picking it.
-The ending lets you explore the world and still talk to people, which is friggin' awesome. Too few RPGs do this, and I love it!
-The credits have two halves, each superbly done. There's the lighthearted cast roll with a terrificly catchy medley of the game's music, then the somber photo album with the lovely rendition of the Sound Stone theme.
-I also love the way the game incorporates the player into its ending, and the credits. Very nice way to break the fourth wall and do something that a non-gaming medium could never pull off.

@Zero

I sure hope Mad Duck is on there! He made something spin around, after all. Jeff does not have any PP.

@TriforceBun

I echo your sentiments. Very well put. Also, as an expecting father, the crib scene hit me right in the feels. Especially since my son will be named after me, and of course I named the dog in the game after our dog. My wife and I even have had the conversation about hoping our dog won't be jealous of the baby. And that we wanted BLT's (the food I chose for the game). Very well done.

@Zero

Thank you for waiting, legit.

@TriforceBun

I wanted to wait a couple days after beating the game before I wrote down my thoughts, so I'm sure it's not just the positive thoughts from the ending speaking. Here are my very disjointed thoughts. I can't think of a more organized way to convey them without writing a full essay, so sorry if my discussion jumps around a lot.

I love Earthbound for most of the reasons other people love it. The characters, story, themes, and world are unlike anything else I've seen before. Even when you're taken away from the NPC heavy areas towards the end, the game is still fun. Taken as a whole, Earthbound is a fantastic journey. Even the flaws and frustrations such as the simple battle system, limited inventory space (which I know was intentional), and lack of direction at times further engrossed me in the world and endeared me to the experience in a weird way. The further into the game you get, the more dark and strange the world becomes. The progression is so smooth that you hardly notice a change until you step back and look at the game as a whole.

There's so much to love about Earthbound. It's charming and clever and has a degree of heart and inspiration that few other games could even dream of having. The game is uplifting and hopeful. The word that keeps coming back into my mind is endearing. Earthbound won me over in a way that no other game has in quite a while. In some ways, it feels as if it were made for me. I'm struggling to resist the urge to play it again, as there are several games I should finish and new ones on the horizon. I will probably crack and start another playthrough before the year's end.

Without a doubt, Earthbound is one of my favorite games I've ever played.

So, I spent about 30 minutes beating the everloving S out of the end of this game, and no budge or signs of weakness. I spy'd, used Brainshock, PSI attacks, normal attacks, let him hit himself, etc. Are we at a Belch scenario again where I have to use some magical item that I've long forgotten about or something? I don't get it. I eventually said "maybe they have to kill my people, and its just Ness," and then "maybe Ness has to die, too, but he won't really be dead." This game makes me extremely mad.

What the H am I supposed to do?

Welp, I just beat this thing. I've got a lot of problems with you people, and know you're gonna hear about 'em!

Not so much you guys, but the game. This is a game that I avoided and "avoided" as a kid, one that was rare enough where I wouldn't come across it in the wild, and one that didn't really "jump out" at me turning through the pages of Nintendo Power. Even the clay model guys that they used in there didn't appeal to me, even though I love clay everything else.

The game..I dunno. I know a lot of you guys tout it as your favorite of all-time, and I do feel bad that it doesn't hit me the same as it does you guys. I know Ludist mentioned Breath of Fire II haven't bad translation or whatever, but I can promise you that if some of the lines that are in that game were in this game, not only would you think that they were hilarious, but that they were done on purpose. Can't you see Orange Kid saying something like "I like fixing things. It makes me go to the bathroom?" I dunno. The fact that a lot of these things were written on purpose through this game confuse me.

One line that I did enjoy was in the Lost World area when the one Tenda was like "hey! Get out of our Dinosaur Cage!" Yes, they built a cage all the way around their tiny village, haha. That's classic little guy stuff though. I feel like a Brownie in Willow would do something similar..at least that's the voice I heard.

The final battle..man. Yes, incredibly frustrating. I had 2-3 calls to Lou just to make sure stuff was going right. Pray never even registered as a choice for me as my early game run-ins with it were unfavorable. Mass crying, everyone getting confused, barely restoring HP. Basically a waste for me all the way through. If there were some indication that your attacks weren't doing anything, perhaps that would've been good. I with the same approach would've been used on Master Belch, like "Belch is eyeing your Belch Cola" or whatever that item was. Sticky Fly Paper? Its been so long.. Going back, on my 2nd Giygas attempt, I did see that Pokey eluded to you "calling out in the darkness," but he said so much BULL right before that, so it didn't even register. If you pick and pry apart everything that everyone says, you aren't a detective; you're cruisin' for confusion! (COINED)

I'm playing through Simon's Quest right now with a map, and I'm still getting all of the Hint things just to see if they'd make any sense. One of the clues is "Dig up the 4th Grave to find a Diamond." That isn't even TRUE. In any way, shape, or form. Yeah, you find it in a graveyard..from a PERSON..not at the 4th grave. I don't understand how this stuff ends up in games. Is it there as a deterrent to your adventure? A little bump in the road to trick you? Why do that though? You're supposed to trust these people, and develop a trust for them throughout your play.

I definitely missed the Fantasy aspect in this RPG that I so often have in other games. I've played other "modern day" RPGs though (Secret of the Stars) that are similar, but the whole Bat/Pan/Gun/YO-YO (GD StarTropics poking its DISGUSTING head out, another "MUST MISS!" for me) thing is kinda lost on me. I'd rather use a Sword, some sort of Knuckle Glove, etc. That's just a little gripe. I understand how this game can be appealing for a bunch of people, specifically you guys who grew up with it, but it just missed wide, wide left for me. And I don't think its a "should've played it when you were younger!" thing because I know for a fact that Lou, my good friend, loved it. He highly suggests it, I do not. But I highly suggest Ogre Battle, and only my wife finished it out of all of us with me sitting next to her, so theres that too. Not everyone likes the same games; it happens.

I made a secondary save file so I can find the 1/128 things if I dare to in the future, and my restore point is right before the credits so I can go around and talk to everyone else I want to. But I don't want to. Icing on the cake for me, with this game; ending on a screen that can only be exited via power off or reset. How do you know its REALLY the end? Right before this it WASN'T really the end! And the only way you got there was by waiting a little bit. GRAGH, Breath of Fire II, where are you..

EDIT- I HAD to come back!! How could I forget about the Item Management in this game?! By far the worst I've ever encountered. I understand limiting how much you can carry, but limiting how much you can STORE, too!? And delivering / sending only 3 Items at a time, and $18 per transaction? No, money is no object later on (I've got the power of the card! --Sting), but early on its a bit of an issue. And later on when you fill up your box without warning, you can be left in a bit of a trap. Sometimes I'd spend an hour (legit hour) shifting and sending items around before selling those, and sending those back, and selling, receiving, sending, moving, selling, receiving, sending, selling... Horrible.

Music wasn't memorable for me at all. I had it down most of the game, but picked it up for new areas, boss fights, only to find that it was once again bland or the same. One of the final battle songs was finally good. I know the music from Smash Bros. is from another game in the series, yes? Its a shame that music wasn't here. I think that grew on me a little. This game's music did not.

Rolling HP meter is an interesting idea. In conjunction with that, I don't understand why an exploding tree / robot would stop hurting you as soon as they're gone. If they explode, and you take 200 damage..shouldn't you take 200 damage? I found that weird.

The whole trippy / "drink this tea.." thing missed me, too. Not much of a psychedelic guy (uh, at all?), and that stuff messing you up isn't cool for me. And getting stuck doing that waiting for the story to finish (God forbid you hit A by accident -- AGAIN) was crapola, and actually waiting for 3 Minutes for Belch's place to open was even worse. WHAT. WHAT. I don't get it. How is this a good idea? I get "kooky," I get "offbeat," I DON'T get "sit here for 3 minutes and just stare at the screen." *sigh*

Sorry if all of my griping bummed you guys throughout. I'm sure there was enough good stuff to offset those. Thanks for playing, "glad" I got to finally play this after never playing it before. I remain confident in my "I know if I'll like that game" deal that I have going, almost at a perfect clip. Pretty good, man. --No thank you, WRPGs. You'll get no quarter from me!! (I'm aware this isn't one.)


Alright, Vicki! Close us out, now! Good luck!

@Mr_Mustache I think if a person goes into a game expecting to hate it, then they'll hate it, because their mind is focused on negative aspects and thoughts.

Mop it up said:

@Mr_Mustache I think if a person goes into a game expecting to hate it, then they'll hate it, because their mind is focused on negative aspects and thoughts.

Okami and Resident Evil 4 say otherwise.


The things that I didn't like: tell me how they're great.

Start with "annoying item system," follow up "not moving for 3 minutes," and so on.

@Mr_Mustache

What you saw as "annoying" (although I agree on the item system), I found "charming." Waiting three minutes? Gold. It's very funny that you have to do exactly as it says, and it works. It's the total opposite of the "There's a Diamond in the 4th Tombstone" thing. The whole wit of the Dungeon Man's Dungeon was great too. The little things made this game for me.

@TheOldManFromZelda

Theres so much moooore though. And the fact that I had terrible luck with the 1/128 (more like 1/560) vs. you guys who found that freakin' thing in TWO FIGHTS didn't help.

You have a lot of legitimate complaints, especially the item management, so annoying.

I guess it's just a matter of whether the "whole" does it for you or not. I loved Earthbound despite its flaws because it did so much so right for me too. But without the setting and "charm" and goofiness and stuff, things that you didn't seem to get into as much, it would probably just have been an average RPG.

@Mr_Mustache
I'm almost sure that tenda Dinosaur Cage is a reference to Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, where someone called "Wonko the Sane" made an insane asylum for the rest of the world, basically an inside-out house, and lived "outside" of it.
I'm not sure if the reference was made in the original text, or in the translation, though.