A Nintendo community
by the fans!
           
  Forum main
 + 
Is the success of Ocarina of Time ruining or saving the Zelda fanbase? [roundtable]
 
So, Chrisbg99 and I were talking last night about Skyward Sword and how I was going to mention in my future review of it how I actually liked Twilight Princess.

He told me that contrary to the loudmouths that dislike TP, it was really well-received, it's just the vocal fans that dislike it.

But now I'm starting to see people comment with 'TP is the most underrated Zelda game' on videos of the Medley of TP from the 25th Anniversary Soundtrack.

And that got me thinking... doesn't this always happen?

I mean, every time there is a console Zelda released, we have these fans who say, 'It will never be as good as OoT', and then afterwards, when the next console Zelda releases, it ends up becoming an underdog in a few fans' eyes, and eventually starts to get it's own loving fanbase.

It happened with Majora's Mask
It happened with Wind Waker
and I'm starting to see it happen with Twilight Princess.

Then there are the fans that just want the 'next OoT', but really... there won't be another OoT. So those fans' expectations are always shot no matter what you give them.

What are your thoughts on this?

Reminder: This is about OoT ruining/saving the fanbase, not the franchise.

URL to share (right click and copy)
11/28/11, 04:55    Edited: 11/29/11, 03:30
 
Why not sign up for a (free) account?
   
 
@Paleo_Orca

You flagged your thread?
11/30/11, 09:25   
@Guillaume

Huh... I might have by accident. I'm need to stop staying up so late...
11/30/11, 09:32   
Edited: 11/30/11, 09:32
@TheBigG753
Naw, cuz Mario was mentioned too. And if both Mario and Zelda are doomed, then Nintendoomed!!!
11/30/11, 09:35   
I think it might even be like the Bond movies. Every Bond movie just started getting wackier and more outlandish...but when they did reinvent the wheel a bit with Casino Royale, it's hard to really compare Casino Royale to some other Bond movies. I know not everyone's a fan, but I loved that take on Bond. I think the status quo got interrupted in a good way, and now I don't feel like I'm hoping that the next Bond movie will be the next Goldeneye. If it does its own thing well, but still feels like Bond, then I will be a very happy camper.
11/30/11, 09:44   
Yeah, going with an overworld as big as these sandbox games would be a huge mistake... that is most certainly not the right path for Zelda, so it really irks me when people wish for that. I really just want to see an overworld similar to A Link to the Past, but in 3D. It's not complicated.
11/30/11, 12:42   
Moving my commentary here from another post:

I'm having a very hard time getting into this game, but I can't put my finger on exactly why. Admittedly, I've only just completed the first dungeon, but I'm just not getting drawn into the world like I have with past Zelda games.

The tutorial section felt tedious and drawn out...I find the character designs, (at least some of them), quite ugly, and I've already been forced to use dowsing to complete an overly long fetch quest. It's possible that I am no longer intrigued by the tropes of the Zelda universe...and that makes me sad.

I will say, however, that I am thoroughly enjoying the combat, and the attention that must be paid to land hits against enemies. The first fight against Ghirahim, while ugly from an personally aesthetic standpoint, was very fun!

I'm hoping the combat can get me through the long stretches of tedium, (or that the game picks up speed).

I guess what I'm so surprised by is that Nintendo and Iwata have been touting the length of development and dev team size for this game, (100+ devs for 5+ years), that I was expecting this puppy to be honed to a fine point. Perfect pacing with spot on controls and mechanics, (I can't even control the damn camera while I'm embarking on another random "find 3 of these" quests).

A bit disappointing so far. I will redact if it picks up as I get further into the game.

EDIT:
On a side note, the music is AMAZING! You can always count on Mr. Kondo to deliver!
11/30/11, 17:01   
Edited: 11/30/11, 17:23
@Simbabbad
Yup. Other M was a disaster cuz it wasn't Metroid Prime, and Samus talked.
11/30/11, 17:57   
I thought Simbabbad liked Other M? And so did carlos? Or maybe he's being sarcastic, or Simbabbad's being sarcastic, or... @_@
11/30/11, 18:02   
I know he liked it, and I loved it. Was being sarcastic :)
11/30/11, 18:28   
NINTENDOOOOOOOOOMED!!!!!!!
11/30/11, 20:09   
@TriforceBun

Yes! It did make me wonder about the history behind that area!

My mind boggled when I heard I had to go to The Temple of Time. It's like WTF happened?? It made me question the entire setting of the game.

Note: Only beaten up to the 4th dungeon so this may be way off but....this is speculation based on the nature of the third area:

I thought SS was supposed to be the origin game, set before everything else....Yet here we are stumbling around the desertified ruins of Lanayru- A desert & ruins including robots and and an incarnation of the Temple of Time. And this is supposed to have been around even before the early time period the game supposedly takes place in? It doesn't make sense. All this stuff that had happened to Skyloft removing it from Hyrule in the face of demon attack and what haveyou ....not referenced in any previous Zelda game. I know I know, they hadn't known they were going to do this game all those years ago, but this still stretches the limits of credibility.

Enter the whole time travel thing with the Gate of Time. I don't know where that's leading but it opens up a possibility: This game isn't set before the others. It's set in Hyrule's far future. It explains how what we knew as the Temple of Time eventually became a desert. Why we have advanced tech floating around like robots. Skyloft. All the weird nitpicks.
But with the use of the Gate of Time, Zelda and Link travel *back* to the very beginning of Hyrule's history....and are responsible for all the elements of 'future' games in the series. The Master Sword, the original establishment of Hyrule, etc etc. I'm not really clear on the details.


Of course like I said, I'm probably way off. But this amount of speculation *in game*? That's pretty cool from a storytelling perspective, *and* the game used the environment to do it rather than beating me over the head with exposition.
11/30/11, 21:20   
I was under the impression that The Temple of Time in Lanayru was simply another Temple of Time that was forgotten about after the humans left to the sky, and that a new Temple of Time was formed around the Master Sword. The humans came back to the surface and settled around that area.

It still feels like the first Zelda to me. The other games reference people living in the sky long ago, and I was under the impression that this was that story. The events at the end of the story suggest that everything falls into place waiting for Ocarina of Time to occur.

Regarding the robots, yes that suggests that there is much more to Hyrule's history than we were aware of. The reasoner never heard about it is simply because it was lost to history. It may look futuristic but it was indeed the past. Everything is cyclical. There was advancement and then there was destruction. I look at the time between the robots and the time of Skyward Sword to be just a dark age where the land was left to monsters and a select group of friendly creatures.
11/30/11, 21:38   
Aonuma made a comment sometime over the past couple of years, that having SS as the origin story but not the first thing to ever happen in the Zelda canon, left the door open for future games that are set before Skyward Sword.

My first impression was to groan, but come to think of it, I wouldn't mind more games set before SS. When you take into account that the previous civilization seemed pretty advanced compared to some of the stuff we've seen previously in Zelda games, the "old" Hyrule could conceivably have a strikingly different geography from what we've come to know (i.e. Lanayru as an ocean, arid area as opposed to a desert) that could provide an opportunity to explore a different setting than we are used to. In essence, you could look further and further into the past to gaze into what some might have one day expected to be the "future".

That, and they may not necessarily have to be pidgeon-holed into the same Link/Ganon/Zelda scenarios over and over. A Zelda game set before Skyward Sword could conceivably have nothing to do with the Legend; something like, I don't know...Majora's Mask?
12/01/11, 03:29   
@TheBigG753

Majora's Mask was about the Legend, though! Did you not read the beginning!!!
12/01/11, 03:57   
It has as much to do with the Legend as Wind Waker had to do with fun gameplay.
12/01/11, 04:01   
I actually really like when they throw things in there that make you wonder. They don't need to explain certain things. I've always been under the impression that the timespan between Hyrule's creation and the earliest game is basically infinite. They can put as many stories in there as they want.

I like that aspect of Lanayru a lot. It suggests to me that there is a LOT we don't know, and that perhaps there is a cyclical nature to Hyrule's progression. They really don't need any more than that.

So, I'm less concerned about them providing a narrative for their universe, and more concerned about them adding narrative to game elements that seem to exist purely for game's sake. For every step they take adding depth and complexity to their universe/timeline, I think they take a step back by having players constantly enter "the Earth Temple" and things of that nature.
12/01/11, 18:13   
One of the more poignant and understated moments of SS for me was (pre-dungeon 5) when you enter the Skipper's home and see his rusted family, various paintings and letters, etc. Combined with the music and the centuries of dust, it made for a great atmosphere without drawing too much attention to itself. I would've liked to see a little more of that kind of thing with the Lanayru province's mechanic, but I still thought it was handled extremely well as a whole. Like Pogue, I like that bit of ambiguity that lets the mind wander.
12/01/11, 18:33   
My issue with Zelda's ambiguity is that it's all a dead end. The universe is self-referential, but in a circular way. It's never going to go anywhere, it's never going to do anything other than flirt with itself. Which is fine, in some respects. I don't mind the relationship that Zelda has with Link in any given game. They're different people, it's fine that the relationship is always in limbo.

But with something like references to other Zelda games, time periods, items or locations? For me it falls flat. It's feels like it's there to hint at something bigger or to establish a cohesive universe, but the hints go nowhere and the universe is only as cohesive as it needs to be within any given moment. Gorons and Zoras are there when the designers feel like throwing them in, not when the timeline dictates they should be there. Hyrule is whatever it needs to be at any given time, not necessarily what the story should dictate. Which is fine, within the confines of an individual game. But it could be so much more as a franchise.

For me, all of those callbacks are a perpetual reminder that the only thing that holds the Zeldaverse together are characters with similar names and clothes. Everything else exists in the heads of fans and on a whiteboard at Nintendo HQ.
12/01/11, 18:39   
@Kal-El814

Yeah, which is why I don't believe in the Zelda timeline, no matter how many times Nintendo claims it exists. To tie all of these games together, you'd end up with a story more convoluted than even Hideo Kojima could muster... and if it exists, why does it have to be a big secret?

12/01/11, 18:45   
Do people really care about story in a Zelda game? I never have. That's not what makes the games great. Nintendo has rarely told a good story and I don't think they should even try to. Zelda's plots are no more important than those found in a Mario game to me.
12/01/11, 18:54   
  Forum main
 +