So, Chrisbg99 and I were talking last night about Skyward Sword and how I was going to mention in my future review of it how I actually liked Twilight Princess.

He told me that contrary to the loudmouths that dislike TP, it was really well-received, it's just the vocal fans that dislike it.

But now I'm starting to see people comment with 'TP is the most underrated Zelda game' on videos of the Medley of TP from the 25th Anniversary Soundtrack.

And that got me thinking... doesn't this always happen?

I mean, every time there is a console Zelda released, we have these fans who say, 'It will never be as good as OoT', and then afterwards, when the next console Zelda releases, it ends up becoming an underdog in a few fans' eyes, and eventually starts to get it's own loving fanbase.

It happened with Majora's Mask
It happened with Wind Waker
and I'm starting to see it happen with Twilight Princess.

Then there are the fans that just want the 'next OoT', but really... there won't be another OoT. So those fans' expectations are always shot no matter what you give them.

What are your thoughts on this?

Reminder: This is about OoT ruining/saving the fanbase, not the franchise.

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Am I crazy for really liking the characters in Skyloft? I thought everyone seemed to feel like they had their own little lives. You basically have an 'episode' with everyone in the town throughout the game.

Perhaps I was just lucky in that I talked to people at the right time, because I never felt like people were simply waiting around for sidequests to trigger. I liked the fact that halfway through the adventure, I would see a character in a different spot in town than I normally see them. It's not like they're standing in the same spot for the entire game. It made them seem a little more alive to me, because at certain points in the game, they'd be upset about something or they'd be out somewhere that they weren't before.

I really enjoyed any interaction I had with Petrice. The dialogue that most of these characters have absolutely crush the dialogue found in other 3D Zeldas in my opinion. I was chuckling to myself a lot over what some of them had to say. The fact that Link and the other characters are simply animated better than they ever have been doesn't hurt either. I thought the world felt very much alive, even though under the surface all of the people simply exist to give you things to do.

When Pipit's mom complains about her dirty house, I was just like...alright, well she's just a woman with a messy house. Then later in the game you actually get to clean her house, which surprised me a little bit because I didn't know I would be doing that.

That woman lives in FILTH by the way.

Anyway, the complaint about NPCs really doesn't bother me, because that's really not the meat of the game anyway, and it's not exactly what I look to Zelda for. Aren't there plenty of characters in Majora's Mask who have problems that aren't fixable until well into the adventure?

I'd also say that the developers spent a LOT of time on the NPCs in Majora's Mask. The game was practically all about the NPCs and helping them. You can't expect every game to be like that.

Yeah I'm really not getting this silly complaint about not caring about the characters, quest dispensers, bad story, no interest, etc. Way too cynical. First Zelda, maybe ever, where I feel invested in the world/characters. I feel the mystery of Zelda coming back, and it feels way different and way less cookie cutter than most.

Skyrim, perhaps the most open game ever conceived, does this exact same thing (quest dispensing). And Zelda ain't Skyrim yet.

I love the characters is SS as well. They're my favorite in any Zelda game for sure.

In the end, every Zelda game is different and puts emphasis on different aspects of the Zelda formula. Skyward Sword excels in its combat, dungeons, and story/characters. Some will love it more than any other Zelda, while some will not like it as much.

GE's point about this being the first game in the timeline makes the lack of cohesive overworld work, from a narrative standpoint, whether you like it or not.

And from a continuity standpoint, it explains why OoT Link has less puzzles to solve in the overworld, because SS Link already solved them all, haha.

Kal-El814 said:not a single character has anything interesting to say

STOP.

I gotta stop you right there, man. Because I've heard this pop up a couple of times in the past few days and I feel that it's completely inaccurate. It looks like a few others have piped in about Skyloft's residents before I had the chance to, but regardless I have to throw in my two cents here because I completely disagree.

I mean, really. "Not a single character has anything to say"? And Simbabbad said something about them being sidequest-dispensers? Could there be a more hyperbolic, cynical way of viewing the NPCs? There's a ton of great dialogue in the game--it's funny, charming, curious, quirky, and ultimately very Paper Mario-esque. Go sleep in Beedle's bed until nightfall and tell me that isn't a clever and amusing aside. Go string along Peatrice and watch the results. You can sit in the teacher's chair and have him scold you. Groose has a picture of Link on his punching bag (and you can skew his self-portrait by rolling around). Stritch opens up to you at night. Karane has a crush on Pipit. Rupin is two-faced at night, and shows signs of his dual personas when you refuse to buy something from him. Pipit's mom is lazy and would rather hire help than clean up herself. The potion shop owner clearly doesn't help her husband raise their child, considering they have to bring him to work. Fledge is a wuss and sort of betrays you at the very beginning, but clearly wants to improve himself. These aren't the deepest characters in the world, but it's absolutely interesting enough and easily among the best in the series.

Yes, since SS is a video game, people will hang around their usual spots instead of going about daily routines--comparing it to Majora's Mask is silly and unfair since MM was built around the concept of three-day repetition, meaning that was the game's focus and it could do that (at the expense of like, four dungeons and a smaller overworld). I love the Skyloft residents and I find them a lot of fun to interact with, and I think big, blanket statements like "not a single character has anything interesting to say" are ridiculous when it's evident how much care was put into that portion of the game.

carlosrox said:

Skyrim, perhaps the most open game ever conceived, does this exact same thing (quest dispensing). And Zelda ain't Skyrim yet.

To be fair, Skyrim NPCs do engage in emergent gameplay.

They talk to each other, wander around town, go to bed in their homes at night.

Heck, I've seen unscripted events such as that bitch up the road stealing the crafting supplies I stored in a barrel outside the arms dealer in Whiterun. I've seen townsfolk erupt into fights when an enemy NPC drifts into town. I've even come across townies out on the road, hunting, collecting herbs and more. These aren't "blank slate" NPCs, these are named characters that run shops and live in town.

It’s interesting to see the A.I. in Skyrim interact with each other, both man and beast. Just traveling on foot from one place to the next reveals the coolest, random stuff.

@TriforceBun

YES!! YES!!! YESSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@TriforceBun
Well said.

@New Forms

Okay. Anything to say about Zelda though?

@Guillaume

Nope. Just adressing the Skyrim content.

Thanks.

I skimmed through this discussion, but just wanna say, if you guys want a Zelda game with a better plot, more interesting characters, busier towns and slightly different progression, and don't mind weaker dungeons, go play Okami right now. Seriously.

@TriforceBun

SS's dialog is awful. I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise. Almost universally, it's a line or two that has no bearing on anything. If a character has a quest, maybe they'll say so after their initial observation which doesn't change.

Shit, not far into the game, you open a hole in the clouds from which you can see the surface, and there's a huge beam of light blasting into the sky. People from town fly all the time, you run into them in the overworld. In town? Almost nobody mentions the fact that there is a hole in the clouds and people can see the a world down there, despite the fact that the surface was a legend and there's a huge fucking beacon in the sky advertising it. Talk to a kid that can see it and what does he say? "I WISH I HAD A BUG CATCHING NET."

A couple characters having something cute (genuinely; I don't mean that pejoratively) to say does not mean that overall the dialog is not complete garbage. It is. And it's not like Zelda is somehow below or beside its characters being aware of their world. Characters in LttP, LA, OoT, MM all did this. A couple oblique references to something more and some subtext with absolutely no payoff or context is NOT compelling writing.

The writing in SS is trash. Maybe I was being hyperbolic, but that was not me being cynical. It's me being accurate. And maybe it is some of the best in the series. But that says more about the series than anything else.

@TriforceBun

I agree, I didn't even interact with the characters that much in Skyloft during my first playthrough and they're still some of the most memorable NPCs I've ever encountered in a game because of their quirkiness and dialogue.

@Simbabbad
That's too bad. I look forward to finishing the game, at least. I hope you can wash the horrid taste of Skyward Sword out your mouth with some Kirby goodness.

Simbabbad said:

Some others said they'll pick up the next Zelda whatever it is - it's certainly not my case.

Whoa, you're not gonna pick up the next Zelda just because you didn't like this one? And why didn't you just finish the game if you were that far along?

I mean... I didn't like Other M, but I'm definitely gonna get the next Metroid whatever it may be.


It seems like this thread has turned into a debate about whether Skyward Sword is good or not, but again, I emphasize, this is not about the franchise.

Though I have to admit, seeing these members argue over Skyward Sword is sort of an example of what I mean by "ruining the fanbase."

@Paleo_Orca

I say this without a shred of irony or cynicism. If that is true, you need to play more games.

I get more confused the more you say it's not about the franchise. Could you explain again what this is all about again...

Rereading the OP I am confused as well. Every game in the series has its lovers/haters. As you can see from the poll in the other thread, a lot of people don't hold OoT as the best anyways. With time, appreciation for each entry in the series only grows.

(I think) He means the roundtable is not about whether or not OoT "saved" or "ruined" the franchise because of the refinements it added that stuck around forever, he's asking if the fanbase will never truly enjoy a Zelda game again like they should because they're blinded by Ocarina's success, if you will.

And that's too bad that some folks aren't enjoying Skyward. I for one loved the ride and I'm still not done. Oh well, that's enough for me.