This is one game where I feel that both the Wii Remote and Wii U tablet controller would significantly benefit the gameplay (pointer controls, streamlined visor combat/interaction). You could also use the touch screen for mode/item selections and the map. I'd rather have this option than be forced to choose between the two.

What do you guys think? Yea? Nay? WTF?

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@PogueSquadron

That's the beauty of it though! Trying to scan and do combat at the same time would make the battles more intense and realistic. There would be real consequences for just playing around reading the text.

It really boils down to how comfortable you are with multi-tasking. I liken it to the preference some people have with Turn-based RPG's vs Action/real-time RPG's.



@Anand

This is how I feel as well. I'm not against options, but not at the expense of new gameplay experiences.

PogueSquadron said:

@Anand I guess it depends on how they handle each game. On the Wii at least, the motion control for the most part could be done with a traditional controller (for instance, Link's sword swinging in Skyward Sword could be relegated to the right analog stick).

I also just like the option for traditional controls on every game in the event that I want to play a game in bed or something.

Please tell me you don't believe this bullshit.

A right analog stick has 2 axes. The wiimote with WM+ has 3 axes. It would literally be impossibe to convert Skyward Swords motion controls to the right analog stick.

@casper884

6 axes.

@stephen08

What are you talking about? There are only 3 axes, X, Y, and Z. I think you mean 6 DOF (degrees of freedom), which the wiimote has and the analog stick doesn't.

@casper884

I wasn't sure if you would know that term or not. Saying it has 3 axes is correct but it's selling it short since an analog stick has 2 DOF (excluding the button press) while the Wiimote has 6.

So yes, 6 DOF vs. 2 DOF so it would be impossible to replicate a Wiimote's input with an analog stick. And in the case of Skyward Sword it better be.

@stephen08

Yeah, maybe I should have compared the degrees of freedom instead of the axes for a more precise explanation as to why Skyward Swords motion controls (which use 6 DOF) couldn't be replicated on the analog stick.

Prime 3 already had nearly perfect controls. They just need to work on turning faster (adding a quick 180 turn like in RE4 could help) and tighten things up a bit more and there you go.

Conduit

@casper884 If Link's sword motion is isomorphic to a plane, it can be replicated on a right analog stick?

edit: there's also stab, but an analog click could convert you into stab mode.

Stabbing has always been pretty dicey on the Wiimote, anyway. At least the kind that relies on the pointer.

Yeah I have to say when I made that comment, I was really only thinking about Link's horizontal, vertical, and diagonal sword slashes, which could be done on an analog stick, but there are other things I suppose that it couldn't do. At a base level though, it could more or less get the job done. (That is, if you want to slash from left to right, you move the analog stick from left to right quickly).

One of the only problems there is the same as other dual analog games - with your thumb on the right analog stick, you only have the shoulder button accessible unless you switch your thumb back and forth between the stick and face buttons.

Still, I wouldn't mind something like that so you could have the analog control of the sword, while still having use of the touchscreen for map and equipment in a Zelda game.

Am I the only one who still to this day has difficulty pushing analog sticks at precise angles? Pushing directly up is basically the only thing that doesn't give me trouble, but I've noticed in various twin-stick shooters that I always have to correct myself. I never aim properly right away.

And I'm sure the same would happen to me with SS's sword movements if they relied on the analog stick.

Not that I had 100% accuracy in the SS demo, but I'm pretty sure I was doing better than I would have with an analog stick.

@Guillaume
I hear you. Case in point, I fucking suck at Bit.Trip VOID because of this.

@PogueSquadron

No, it couldn't more or less get the job done. It would control like shit (trying to wield a sword with your thumb would be the ultimate challenge of dexterity) and would still be too limited and imprecise because you would have to take out inputs that are natural to sword wielding, and the distance that the analog travels from one end to the other is just way too small. The animations would be equally horrible. You guys can't be serious.

And this isn't even considering the other implementations of motion control in Skyward Sword, like the door puzzles.

@Renjaku

No, we are not talking about just two or three types of slashes here. You also have to consider roll rotation (the turning a doorknob motion) along each axis, which makes the other rotations (pitch and yaw) even more distinguished in terms of how things are cut. This requires 6 DOF, which is just impossible on the analog stick. It simply cannot be done. This isn't even considering stabbing.

@casper884 Is there door knob motion in SS?

@Renjaku

Yes.

@casper884 Where? Examples in sword use?

@Renjaku

I don't know if there are any videos, but I've played the demo several times and have tested all 6 DOF with the sword. The motion is there, as it should be.

As for examples...

No one cuts at the same precise angle every time they make a vertical, horizontal, or diagonal slash. It's different everytime. This also very important for making the physics (which Skyward Sword has, taken straight out of WSR Sword Slicing mode) more accurate when you slice objects.

Without roll rotation, you'd be cutting everything the same way everytime, and would be limited to using the sword for simple horizontal, vertical, and diagonal swipes. It's a terrible idea and it would never work.

Yeah, I guess that was a horrible example. And you're all right, building controls around an exclusive control scheme is the only way to optimize that control scheme.

I guess my original point was that there are a lot of Wii games that don't bother to do that, and motion controls get shoehorned in, and if that's the case, then I'd rather just have the option to play with traditional controls. Zelda was a pretty terrible example, and I guess I don't know where I was going with that. Sometimes I think I just tend to argue for the sake of arguing.

In the case of the WiiU, Nintendo has a big, big choice to make, especially regarding Zelda and Metroid. Do they keep the motion controls that have worked in the past, or abandon them in favor of their new tablet controller? In regards to Zelda, I think it depends on what they want to do with the game. Zelda obviously doesn't need motion controls to succeed, as they've made Zelda games for 20 years without them. The game doesn't need to revolve around precise sword motion, and they could just make a game that focuses on other elements. Metroid, as well, can be done a few different ways that forego motion control (for instance, an Other M or Super Metroid style game where the tablet is primarily used as an interactive map).

I still don't think that, regarding a first person Metroid game, that the zapper is the way to go, just because it sounds too uncomfortable and bulky (as well as taking me out of Samus' visor by introducing another 'window' i have to look through). If push came to shove, I would probably just want a perfected version of MP3's controls...However, as Metroid Prime isn't exactly a game of precision (especially if Retro were to design the enemies similar to the way they were in the first two games), I could live with traditional controls and the tablet. Perhaps with a more readily available map, they would feel more comfortable making maps that are more interconnected and complex, rather than a few areas that are isolated and disconnected from each other.

Regarding the zapper, we'll have to just agree to disagree. I'd definitely like to see something like that in a multiplayer game though, where players take turns using the zapper and the other players remain on the TV.

@casper884 Why do you need roll rotation to produce every angle of swing? I guess you tend to align the roll with the direction you swing. But supposing you didn't, and you rolled the remote at an angle before swinging, say, exactly straight down. Will SS think you are swinging at the angle you are rolled towards?

And the exact mechanics aside, analog sticks can produce every angle as well. What's SS doing that is unique?