This is one game where I feel that both the Wii Remote and Wii U tablet controller would significantly benefit the gameplay (pointer controls, streamlined visor combat/interaction). You could also use the touch screen for mode/item selections and the map. I'd rather have this option than be forced to choose between the two.

What do you guys think? Yea? Nay? WTF?

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[ref=id=6428&pagenumber=1#176591]casper884 said:[/ref][quote][ref=id=6428&pagenumber=1#176590]Tranquilo said:[/ref][quote]It would probably control like Other M so just no.[/quote]
The zapper uses the nunchuk, so no, it wouldn't control like Other M.[/quote]
I think you misunderstood me, or rather, I didn't explain my reasoning.

I don't think it'll control exactly like Other M, I think we won't have enough control. Yesterday I didn't even realize this was asking about Metroid Prime 4, just the next 2D metroid.

Then I thought about it and there are a whole other set of problems when making this decision for a games like the prime series. Firstly you have the face that people would have to buy a piece of plastic to play the game. Granted, it might not be too expensive but people or Nintendo might not be willing to pay for it. Second, you need the face buttons to play, granted, you could use the Wii u tablet for those extra buttons but it would be cumbersome reaching with either hand to the screen to activate missiles or what have you. What you could do is streamline the power ups like in Metroid Prime 3, but it still doesn't seem ergonomic to have to hold the the Zapper like that the whole time. How would you use the grapple beam if you decide to streamline the power ups?

Also, in a game like Metroid it makes sense to have visual information in the screen since you're looking through Samus' visor. I never found that information cumbersome or intrusive, quite the contrary, I think it would be cumbersome to have to look down on your screen every time you want to know how much health you have or where you are in the world.

One quirk of the Zapblet (!) is that, assuming that you have something like mouselook, you will always have a big honking screen in front of your face. So it would almost have to be some kind of window into the world.

Nintendo should publish a brand new Sniper Scope from Konami. And then never release it outside of Japan.

@gencid

People said the same thing about the DS. In fact, when Nintendo was designing the DS, that misconception came up quite frequently. But the reality is that the human brain adapts very quickly and it takes a fraction of a second to switch your gaze to the other screen. It's a much more streamlined option compared to breaking up the pacing by having to pause and read text, or switch between multiple modes.

I prefer concepts that help maintain the flow of the game. I was just playing Batman Arkham Asylum and was really disappointed with how the flow of the game was interrupted because I had to manage my upgrades in a menu while pausing the game. Arkham City on Wii U may not have this issue because it can use both screens at the same time.

Anyway, I'm not assuming anything, which is why I created a poll in the first place. I'm ASKING you how you would feel about playing a game that used the wiimote and tablet at the same time via the zapblet.

@Tranquilo

I see nothing wrong with a bundle.

Also, as I have explained before, no one said anything about removing the visor from the tv screen, but adding an additional one to the tablet screen, like a real-time scan mode.

I'm not taking any issue with using the tablet to manage equipment, upgrades, and a map. I actually think that's a great idea.

I take issue with having to hold up a peripheral like a gun, when the main character in the game isn't holding a gun. I think it'll get annoying, especially if you want to be able to manipulate the touch screen. If I want to use the touch screen, isn't there a chance that Samus will wind up spinning or looking up or down? Let alone the comfort factor of holding a gun and having to let part of it go to use the touch screen? If you're doing this a lot, you can't really just collapse in a chair and play a video game, which is what I prefer to do unless I'm playing a party game. This is a game I would want to just spend a day in front of the TV and get absorbed into the game. I really don't see much of a benefit over the original scheme in MP3. If going to a separate screen to read data logs is annoying, just overlay it on part of the screen. Regardless, you can't read data logs and play the gsme anyway, so why bother trying to multitask? Maybe they could just have a computer voice over for the logs, or voice act it like in Bioshock.

In the end, it just sounds annoying, and I dont want to hold up a tablet to the screen for a visor effect, when the way they had it before was fine, bordering perfection. And I still don't agree with you regarding being able to look at both screens at once, at least the way I'm thinking of. Let's say on the TV, you see things normally. But on the tablet, you've enabled a visor mode necessary to exploit an enemy's weakness. You hold the tablet in front of the screen like an overlay to find and shoot the enemy's weakpoint. With the tablet in front of the TV, you literally can't see the TV. To me it's no different than the way they had it before, where the screen just changes depending on what mode you're in. I'm okay with that I guess if the character in the game had a sniper rifle or something, because theres a connection to what's going on on the tv. But in this case it just feels stupid because Samus' visor, the one on the TV, is the place with all the cool modes.

That sort of thing makes sense to me in a baseball gsme, where you don't want the batter to see where you're throwing, but I'm a single player game it just sounds superficial and redundant. Having the tablet for maps and stuff sounds awesome though, and is why I'm excited for any sort of Metroid game.

And yes, I actually am prepared to be disappointed when they use the tablet for dumb things. I will be open minded and try it out for sure, because who doesn't want to like things, but I'm just saying that on paper, certain uses for the tablet I've heard just don't sound like any fun.

@casper884

You still can't see 2 screens at the same time on DS, which is why 99% of the DS games don't expect you to do that. A quick glance on the menu/map/game statistics is not the same as having 2 real time actions happening on both screens at the same time. Even than, the distance between 2 DS screens is less than 1 inch with almost the same focal point/distance from the eyes. I don't think your eyes will like watching both the tablet and big screen at several feet distances for a prolonged period of time, even if it is just a quick glance and not parallel actions on 2 screens.

I see it more like a scope on a gun that you can peer through, when necessary. Hopefully, it will be easy to move the Zapblet out of the way, when not. I'm not sure how that would be possible, though.

@Anand

That's basically the idea, except the 'visor' wouldn't really be a scope (though it could do that too; maybe like a zoom/magnify mode).

@gencid

Actually, yes, you can view two screens at the same time. In fact, you could view a thousand screens at the same time if they were all small enough to be within your line of sight.

I think what you mean to say is that you can only focus on one screen at a time. This is true, but it's also true that our eyes can only focus on one focal point at a time, even on one screen. Should developers only make games that display one object on screen at a time because of this fact? No, because it is not necessary to focus on more than one focal point at a time to be able to simultaneously interact with multiple things in a given environment. Our eyes switch focal points all the time and at a very rapid pace. It may take some adjustment if the distance between focal points is relatively large, but the eyes will become acclimated to it over time.

@PogueSquadron

It sounds like your main issue is that the game will not allow you to play lazily. I suppose you'll have the same complaints for Skyward Sword. Anyway, if a tablet visor is implemented, I'm sure Retro could find a way to make it an organic component to Samus' suit.

I think what this comes down to is having faith in Retro.

@casper884 i dont know, I think there's a huge difference between flicking your wrist and keeping a gun peripheral propped up and pointed towards the TV. I played Red Steel 2 with no problem sitting in my chair like normal.

That being said, I do think it could be cool in another game, but I don't want to see it in Metroid.

@Earendil

You are exactly right. If there's any video game developer that I can trust to nail a technical concept in interface, it's Retro.

@PogueSquadron

There is a huge difference, yes.

The thing is, there are people that think that the gameplay in Red Steel 2 is too physically demanding for a video game. So where is the line drawn? We can't really argue with people's personal preferences or individual levels of comfort, and we can't just arbitrarily choose one, so the best thing to do is to design the game around the concepts that you envision and try to make it as less extraneous as possible (unless the game is intended to be extraneous, like a fitness game).

I guess the line is drawn for me because Red Steel is just kind of a dumb action game. I don't mean that to say it's a shitty game (though I'm not a fan of it personally, and not because of the controls), but it's just kind of a mindless game where you beat guys up in different ways. And besides, while you do have to flick the remote, you're not really hunched over another screen, or worrying about using a touch screen while the other hand controls a gun peripheral. I just can't imagine that flicking my wrist (even if I thought RS2's sensitivity could've used some work) would be less comfortable than supporting a gun peripheral and constantly bringing it up to my face every time I want to use a special visor mode. If it's anything like the other Metroid Prime games, you'd be moving the thing up to your face constantly.

It's really simple and easy to use in MP3 as it is, and it's a pretty elegant solution. They even did the whole x-ray thing without having the need for a secondary screen. Remember, the thing with the sniper scope? I thought that was handled very well. Wouldn't a second screen basically just be putting THAT on the tablet instead of the TV? I'm trying really hard to see how it would be beneficial to gameplay to transfer that visor mode to the tablet, but I'm just not seeing it. I really hope I'm not coming off as rude, but to me it just sounds like this - instead of holding the button and moving the pointer to change your visor, you hold a button and move the tablet up to your face. Maybe I'm understanding your idea wrong, but it just sounds like a completely superficial change (whereas, swinging a sword with the Wiimote is immersing you by having your on screen avatar mimic your actions).

And that kind of brings me back to the whole immersion factor. In MP3, I actually felt like Samus, manipulating my power suit to go into different visor modes. They did a good job of creating the illusion that Samus might actually control her equipment this way (maybe by triggering something in her arm canon and making a quick gesture to change visor modes). It was pretty close to being like a VR game, where your left arm is her left arm, and you're right arm is her right arm. While it wasn't EXACTLY like that, they did an admirable job of making that illusion. Holding a gun and moving a screen in front of my face just feels the complete opposite of what they tried to achieve in the 3 Prime games (from an immersion standpoint). Now, if Samus was a sniper or something with a weapon she held, then that could be pretty cool because it puts you in the shoes of the character. I don't know if I want to hold a gun peripheral for a game where my character doesn't hold a gun. Maybe that sounds very nitpicky, but it's touches like that that make motion control work for me. I mean, keep in mind, Nintendo actually mirrored an entire game because they wanted the player and Link to be swinging with the same hand, haha.

I really liked the feeling that when I moved my right wrist around, Samus' arm cannon would move accordingly. It was almost like my arm was in the arm cannon. I feel like it wouldn't translate well if I see Samus' arm cannon move while I move a zapper around with both my hands.

(Again, I really hope I'm not coming off as too rude. It's just that what you've described sounds nothing more than a superficial change, at least in regards to how Samus' visor works. I like the idea of having the tablet nearby to use as a map though, almost like a reference book that you keep handy or something).

@PogueSquadron

I don't think you're coming off as rude, but I am getting tired of explaining the same thing over and over. If you don't like it or don't see the appeal, that's perfectly fine. You're entitled to your own opinion.

Though I don't know how else to explain why these concepts are new. That should be self-explanatory. We've never been able to use more than one visor at a time in a Prime game, and scanning has always broken up the pacing when it's done in the heat of combat. Even if you can't see the appeal of such innovations, you should be able to understand how they are new and different concepts, and why they aren't the same as what has been done before.

Why not just forget the scan visor altogether and have the game scan anything you target automatically? Just put a little bar at the top of the screen, and when it gets full, it gives you an option to go to the menu or something.


Haha, actually, why HAVEN'T they just done that by now??


Anyway, sorry dude, I'm just not feeling it.

@PogueSquadron

Because scanning is still fun. I like the investigative aspect of it. That appeal would be lost if it was automatic, not to mention that not everyone wants to read through things first before they interact with it.

I just don't like the way it interrupts the pacing during combat. Also, you talk about immersion, but pausing the game when scanning an enemy that you're fighting so that you can read about its weakpoints is completely unrealistic. Having a separate visor not only solves this issue, but allows a new perspective that couldn't be done otherwise. If there was a zoom mode where you could magnify a certain part of the an enemy, you could still maintain a full screen view on the tv so that you can watch out for other enemies in your peripheral vision.

Keep in mind that these are mere examples. I'm not a game developer, and I'm sure that Retro could come up with even better ideas.

And I guess the scanner visor does allow you to see what items can be scanned and what can't. I'd agree with you there for sure! It is cool to be kind of a detective and look around at structural weaknesses and all that kind of stuff.

Here's my thought on it though: Regardless of the zapper involvement, lets say that your scanning info is relegated to the tablet. You would touch a button on the touch screen to access your log data. Your scan data stays on the tablet, while the game stays in realtime on the TV. You'd have to divert your attention to the tablet to read the log entry anyway, so you can't read it during the heat of battle. Whether scanning takes place on the tablet or the TV, you'd have to divert your attention to the log data once you're done fighting.

I'm not sure this is a problem of a tabletless control scheme, as much as it is the fact that the log entries aren't read out loud to you. The way I look at it, the fact that the screen pauses after you've scanned something is a design decision made by Retro, and not a limitation of a one screen setup. I mean, it's the exact reason why people shouldn't text while they drive, haha.

They could possibly have it so that upon scanning something, you can hit a button to have a log entry read out loud to you with subtitles (possibly by your computer for enemy data, and by other voice actors for lore). Or, they have some sort of overlay on the side of the screen, almost like Samus is a Sentinel on the old X-Men cartoon. You could opt to pause the game to read more information perhaps. (Actually, I really like this idea. I love hearing Samus' computer say things like "Log Entry Completed" or whatever).

So that's my thing with it - tablet or no tablet, you can't read something and fight at the same time.

In Bioshock, for instance (not sure if you've played it), you often find radio logs of sorts that chronicle people's experiences in Rapture. They're very well voice acted. You can choose to listen to them while you're running around and fighting, or you can go into the menu and recall it at any time, likely when the action has died down.

I definitely agree that having a map handy, possibly with the ability to write notes to yourself or X off areas you've been to, could be extraordinarily helpful! That's the number one reason I'm looking forward to the tablet across all games. Just having a convenient supplementary display.

I think scanning IS kind of fun, but I think part of the reason it's fun is because Samus' visor goes into a different mode. The TV, which basically acts as Samus' eyes (using the helmet HUD and fancy graphical effects), literally changes so that you feel like Samus is seeing the world in a different way.

I've just kind of accepted that I'm using the TV to see through Samus' eyes, which is one of my absolute FAVORITE things about the Prime games. Having THAT display change into different modes is extremely effective to me in terms of absorbing me into the game, and I do kind of fear that bringing an external display would break that suspense of disbelief to an extent.

I also know you're not a dual analog fan...but for me personally, I don't think IR is AS important at Metroid, simply because the series focuses less on twitch aiming, and more on automated shooting with a lock on mechanic. I wouldn't be heartbroken if it wasn't there.

Would could also be kind of cool would be to bring in a cooperative element, where one player uses the IR control scheme, while another player acts as some sort of automated robot that flies around Samus, doing all the scanning and stuff for her. The one player has fun running around shooting stuff, while another player scans things and communicates to the other player important information.

I actually think it is ESSENTIAL with the WiiU that with all of their games, Nintendo has a lot of options in terms of controls. If they're trying to communicate the idea that there's something for YOU (that is, you, as an individual), then I think they really need to try to cater to as many people as possible. I really don't want to see control schemes getting in the way of people's enjoyment of the content of a game. Everyone should be able to enjoy the games in their own way. I love the fact that PC games nowadays seamlessly let me choose to use a gamepad or a mouse if I want. I feel like every game was practically tailor made for me, which I hope is a priority that Nintendo has with the WiiU.

And honestly, sometimes I like playing games differently. It's a huge reason I think what they did with Mario Kart Wii was genius. Sometimes I want to use the wheel, but sometimes I just want to kick back and play with the controller. It's a win-win situation.

Not to get drawn into another scanning discussion, but I'd rather Wii U-exclusive (single-player) games DIDN'T have many options in terms of control. If they're going to use the new interface, I want the game to be built around it.

@Anand I guess it depends on how they handle each game. On the Wii at least, the motion control for the most part could be done with a traditional controller (for instance, Link's sword swinging in Skyward Sword could be relegated to the right analog stick).

I also just like the option for traditional controls on every game in the event that I want to play a game in bed or something.

@PogueSquadron
Makes sense. I just think the need to support multiple schemes kind of held some Wii games back.

I mean, did we ever get an innovative, fully motion-controlled fighting game? Not counting Wii Boxing?

@Anand Yeah I see your point there and I would agree. But yeah I just think it depends on what they want to do with the game.