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Nostalgia Goggles (I WANT TO SLAP THEM OFF OF PEOPLE) [roundtable]
 
So I was in Anatomy/Physiology lab today, and one guy in my group noticed what was on my shirt:



He asked, "Hey, is that a metroid?"

I said, "Yeah"

He said, "Cool, Super Metroid is one of my favorite games."

"Mine too! :D " I said.

At this time, I'm thinking, 'Holy crap, a Nintenbro at my college! I should introduce him to Neg-'

"Way better than those new first person shooter Prime ones."

...




SO THAT GOT ME THINKING...

Do nostalgia goggles cause a lot of bias towards newer games in a series?

FOR EXAMPLE:



DISCUSS!!!

Note: I love both Super Metroid and Metroid Prime. I actually enjoy the 2-D Metroids more and think Super Metroid is better, but not 'way better' as the guy smugly said.

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Posted: 08/24/11, 20:28:54  - Edited by 
 on: 08/24/11, 22:32:58
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kriswright said:
@GameDadGrant

...take something like Kirby and the Crystal Shards and compare it to Kirby's Adventure on the NES. I'd much rather play the earlier game, wouldn't you? I can't understand the love I hear for Wave Race 64 (and this coming from a man who calls Wii Sports Resort his Game of the Generation). Smash Bros was okay, but was greatly improved in its next iteration. Where the heck was Metroid? If it counts as Nintendo-developed, pretty much all of the Rare games, with the possible exception of GoldenEye, strike me as overrated. DK64, Diddy Kong Racing, Perfect Dark... they just don't do it for me.

Haven't played either Yoshi's Story or Pokemon Snap, though, so I won't comment there. Maybe they were great. Same for the Banjo games, which I hear great things about but which look like boring Collect-a-Thons to me. But I've yet to try them, so no opinion. Conker looks hilarious, though.

I pretty much feel how you feel in the first half of your deal (minus the WSR deal), and I owned an N64 then. You're not alone.

@Zero

There are idiots on YouTube who think that Duane and Brando rapping about Zelda II make reference to Parrapa..when in actuality is was a Palace in Adventure of Link before any of that stuff was ever conceived.

Internet generation = dumbb. <-- two B's.


--They DO get worse and worse. X3 was ok (I remember renting it on SNES way back when; its not X2 and CERTAINLY no X though), X4 had me saying "whyyyyy" angrily the whole time. X5, UGH. I'm dreading X6.
Posted: 08/25/11, 00:01:45  - Edited by 
 on: 08/25/11, 00:03:28
@kriswright

If I had it in me right now to fully express my thoughts in a long post, it would closely resemble yours. So I'll just RFT (reference for truth) and leave it at that.

Though you know, I'm having less trouble getting into PSOne and N64 games that I hadn't played back then as I thought I would. But I'm playing them on the Wii and PS3, which makes a difference with the slightly improved resolution. Currently playing StarFox 64, and it still looks great.
Posted: 08/25/11, 00:27:35  - Edited by 
 on: 08/25/11, 00:29:56
kriswright said:


But take something like Kirby and the Crystal Shards and compare it to Kirby's Adventure on the NES. I'd much rather play the earlier game, wouldn't you?

Can't really say, I never played The Crystal Shards and I wasn't overly impressed with the NES game. Was Crystal Shards not good?

I can't understand the love I hear for Wave Race 64 (and this coming from a man who calls Wii Sports Resort his Game of the Generation).

Some of the praise would undoubtedly come from the amazement of the water graphics and physics that game had back in 1996. It was ground-breaking at the time - there was literally nothing else like it. I think it still holds up, but maybe that's my own nostalgia getting in the way?

Smash Bros was okay, but was greatly improved in its next iteration. Where the heck was Metroid? If it counts as Nintendo-developed, pretty much all of the Rare games, with the possible exception of GoldenEye, strike me as overrated. DK64, Diddy Kong Racing, Perfect Dark... they just don't do it for me.

Haven't played either Yoshi's Story or Pokemon Snap, though, so I won't comment there. Maybe they were great. Same for the Banjo games, which I hear great things about but which look like boring Collect-a-Thons to me. But I've yet to try them, so no opinion. Conker looks hilarious, though.

Don't bother with Yoshi or Snap, IMO. Not worth going back to, even for nostalgia purposes. Banjo was fun, and I still find it enjoyable. I still play it on XBLA. I never played Conker either, but I've heard good things about it.

And I know saying stuff like this makes a lot of people think less of me, but I think Nintendo fans overrate Ocarina of Time

A lot of them do, yes. A lot of others overrate A Link to the Past IMO. I honestly wasn't overly impressed with the SNES game, but I don't like to admit that too often since I'm often looked down upon by other Nintendo fans. So keep it a secret, ok?

and Mario 64. They're both incredible games, no doubt. You'll never catch me saying they're anything less than superb. But there's a kind of misty-eyed nostalgia for them that I don't share. And I even played Mario 64 when it was new (Loved it. I do have some taste.) But for me, Mario is better when it's full of more linear challenges, like in SMB3 or Galaxy. That's Mario, to me, not all that open world stuff in 64.

Super Mario 64 was definitely a different kind of game. So I think we agree on this. Great game, but not necessarily "Mario."

And Ocarina is a monumental game but... well, maybe I'm just a Wind Waker partisan at this point, but I don't think that ugly ol' Blockarina of Time is the greatest game ever made. It might have been the greatest action/adventure game ever made up to that point. Maybe. But I don't feel it should be casting this long shadow over the later Zelda games. It's monumental and important and fun, but it doesn't dwarf everything after it. For me, that's the very definition of what Paleo was complaining about in the OP.

Much like WaveRace 64, a lot of the praise for the game came from how revolutionary it was. Not only for a Zelda game, but action/adventure games as a whole. It's kind of a shame Majora's Mask didn't reach as high acclaim, because I actually prefer that game more out of the two.

One man's opinion.

I can dig it.

@Zero

Parappa I think would be worth checking out, just because of the charm. It should be pretty cheap on PSN by now, and it's a fairly short game, so it wouldn't be a very big investment, time or money-wise.

The 32-bit Mega Man X games never really got "better" after the 4th one. They just kinda were... I dunno, good enough to be profitable, but that's about it. The original X game will always be the best, IMHO.

Also? I've never finished Einhander either.
Posted: 08/25/11, 02:12:44
Crystal Shards was short as hell. A friend of mine got it as a gift a long time ago for his birthday and beat it in like 2-3 hours. Though I've never been a Kirby player (fan) so I don't have much experience with them. Aside from the original on VC, Crystal Shards, and Epic Yarn (which is actually awesome).

32-bit Mega Man X games weren't that good towards the end. It was a pretty nice decline in quality title to title. But I do agree the first is probably the best, though I kind of enjoyed X2.

I keep getting the itch to play Wind Waker again. It's not my favorite title in the series, or at least I don't view it as such, but it's the one Zelda game that has continually called me back over the past year or so. Now that I finally got all my Cube games back, I'll likely run through here again.
Posted: 08/25/11, 02:19:38  - Edited by 
 on: 08/25/11, 02:21:40
@GameDadGrant

Parrapa isn't on PSN.

That other game is, though. Um Jammer Lammy.
Posted: 08/25/11, 02:20:11
@Guillaume

Wait, really? What? You gotta be kidding me. Sony, why?

Speaking of Um Jammer Lammy, I never played that one. Wonder if it's any good?
Posted: 08/25/11, 02:23:06
As I said in another thread it annoys me when people use nostalgia to try to make other people's opinions seem irrelevant. And people who talk about it are rarely willing to make the same type of judgments about their own opinions. In general, the best policy is to assume people actually mean what they say.

As I also said, there are games I'm nostalgic for that I consider some of the best games ever and games that I'm nostalgic for that I consider to be pretty underwhelming.

As for N64, it is my favorite console simply because it is the video game system that provided me with the most amount of fun in my gaming lifetime. I can 100% understand why someone wouldn't appreciate the console if they didn't have those experiences and many of them were multiplayer experiences that are hard to replicate today (or that have been refined in newer games and therefore would lack the same impact if they were). That said, when I actually do get a chance to play Mario Kart 64 multiplayer with a fun group today it's always awesome (see NYC NW meetup).

I feel very confident that anyone who got the chance to play Mario Kart 64, Goldeneye, Mario Tennis, Smash Bros., the THQ wrestling games, etc. etc. with a good group of friends would look very fondly upon their experiences. The amazing single player games (though few and far between) are just icing on that cake.

Mr_Mustache said:
Does Nostalgia play a part? Sure! Everything plays a part in everything.
I also think that a "the newest = the best!" thing plays a part, too, for a lot of people in everything else..

Jargon likes this.

@Guillaume

Um Jammer Lammy is my friend's favorite game of all time.
Posted: 08/25/11, 02:52:42  - Edited by 
 on: 08/25/11, 02:53:22
@Jargon

I do agree that the N64 is a great multiplayer console. In fact, it's the first one that comes to mind when I think of great local multiplayer. Well, it and the Wii. So no arguments there.

I do want to reiterate something I said earlier, before the long post about the N64. Ultimately whether or not nostalgia colors someone's view isn't that important, and I'm sure I'm as guilty of letting nostalgia influence my feelings about games as anyone (I mean, I'm a fan of Toe Jam and Earl, right). I don't want it to look like I was on the attack back there. Accusing people who disagree with me as being merely nostalgic is a hell of a bad way to conduct a debate.

But I'd also add that, whether or not any individual can be accused of nostalgia when talking about a particular game or not, nostalgia for old games certainly exists. Certainly. So I still think it's worth talking about the effect of nostalgia, in a general, non-accusatory way.
Posted: 08/25/11, 03:22:04
I thought Metroid Prime sucked, whereas Super Metroid... was tolerable enough for me to complete. I don't have nostalgia goggles though because I've always hated the original Metroid, even though it was one of the first games I ever played.

EDIT: I haven't played Pokemon Snap since I was a kid (as I lost my copy), but I remember it kicking ass. Yoshi's Story I've played again more recently, and still think it kicks ass. It's definitely still worth a try.
Posted: 08/25/11, 03:29:40  - Edited by 
 on: 08/25/11, 03:31:44
@GameDadGrant Hmm I guess, but like... aren't those games just pressing buttons at the right time? I feel like the novelty of that is so far past, and so many games do so much more with that formula now.

@X-pert74 ...wow.
Posted: 08/25/11, 04:10:52  - Edited by 
 on: 08/25/11, 04:11:30
@kriswright

I forgot to mention this in my original reply to you, but in regards to Ocarina of Time, we must remember it's not *just* Nintendo fans that believe it's one of best (if not THE best) games of all time - pretty much everyone does. It's still one of the highest rated games of all time, from a vast array of critics. Even non-Nintendo fans give it praise. Many games even today still try to ape that formula/game design. The recent 3D remake is receiving rave reviews. Obviously it's still relevant today. Nostalgia certainly plays a factor in the overall love for the game, but we must also recognize that first and foremost, it's an incredible achievement for its series, its genre, its time, and for gaming in general. That's why it's remained so highly thought of, even after more than a decade after release.

Consider this: Tomb Raider was a critical and commercial success, and there is no doubt a lot of nostalgic love for that game. It was one of the first 3D games out there. But there's no way anyone is going to claim that it's just as good now as it was then. They practically had to remake the entire thing when Tomb Raider: Anniversary came out.

@Zero

Well yeah. The genre has grown and has been expanded upon since Parappa's initial release. Doesn't mean it's no longer fun to play.

Consider this: Platforming games have grown and evolved far past the original Super Mario Bros. but that game is still fun to play. Fighting games have far evolved past Street Fighter II, but people still participate in tournaments dedicated to that game. Heck, Billy Mitchell and Steve Wiebe have proved that even an old arcade game like Donkey Kong (and even Pac-Man) can still be fun and competitive in modern times.

Just because a game is old, doesn't mean it's not worth playing. Right?

@X-pert74

...wow.
Posted: 08/25/11, 04:32:09
@GameDadGrant I don't think it is really the same though. Because you can go back to Super Mario Brothers and get something that, for the most part, doesn't exist anymore. Things didn't just move forward, they changed. Whereas when it comes to the button pressing games, they still exist, they're just on another level now. It's tough to want to go back to one of the really basic ones when the newer ones do everything they do and then some.

It'd be kind of like just randomly going back to like... Dragon Quest 1 or something. I'm sure it was a good game, but IX is pretty much the DQ formula with a lot more to it and a lot less annoyances.
Posted: 08/25/11, 04:55:42
@Zero

Not really, since DragonQuest IX is, like you said, still DragonQuest. Nothing has really changed. If one could stomach the rudimentary 8-bit graphics and sound, I'm pretty sure one could enjoy the original DragonQuest just fine.

Besides, like I said earlier, it's not just the rhythm/button-pressing that makes Parappa good. It's the charm. It's the characters, and the goofy, memorable, toe-tapping songs. And the "hit the button at the right time to play the music" aspect is just the beginning. Once you unlock the ability to freestyle, the game becomes something unique. It's pretty much just you and the music, no on-screen button prompts.

I dunno. I think it's worth checking out. It's still fun and charming to me. *shrugs*

By the way, speaking of music/rhythm games, have you played Gitaroo Man? That's another one of my favorites!
Posted: 08/25/11, 05:12:59
@GameDadGrant

I don't disagree with any of that. I particularly like that you mention Tomb Raider, because I think it illustrates the point better than any other. Ocarina of Time is a well designed game that stands above similar games of that generation. I agree. I like the game. I recognize that it has a pristine critical reputation and, actually, I have no problem with that. Go Link, get Zelda.

But, here, I'll dance the real waltz: There's no such thing as THE singular best game of all time. Anytime that's said about any game, it's hype, pure and simple. I don't understand how it became the received wisdom that Ocarina of Time gets to sit on that throne forever and ever, but I definitely sense a pressure in Nintendo fan circles to lionize it and call it the unassailable pinnacle of gaming. And I just don't think the game is quite that good. I'm a fan of Ocarina of Time, but I feel no obligation to pretend to hold it in higher regard than I do just because it was better than other games being made 15 years ago.

Personally, I prefer Wind Waker and probably the original LoZ. And I haven't even touched A Link To The Past, yet.
Posted: 08/25/11, 05:20:25  - Edited by 
 on: 08/25/11, 05:23:52
@Zero

Kind of like how there is little that OoT has done that the sequels haven't done better. Perhaps not all in the same game, though.

I agree with Kris that the game really shouldn't cast that large a shadow on every game that followed.
Posted: 08/25/11, 05:23:40
@Guillaume
@kriswright

OoT has more charm. Every character is memorable. The cuckoo lady? Classic. The lakeside scientist? Classic. The guy in the potion shop? Well actually he might not be that memorable.











Classic.
Posted: 08/25/11, 05:26:39
@Secret_Tunnel

Who?


I like Link's grandma in Wind Waker...

The pirates...

The guy who goes "SPLOOSH"...


Then again, Wind Waker is the only 3D Zelda I've played through more than once.
Posted: 08/25/11, 05:30:42
@Secret_Tunnel

It's true. I can't remember a character that wasn't memorable.

...waitasecond...
Posted: 08/25/11, 05:30:49
@kriswright

To the point about Nintendo fans holding Ocarina of Time as the #1 best game of All Time, Forever; I seem to recall those same fans celebrating/rejoicing when Super Mario Galaxy dethroned it. (it did dethrone it, right?) I'm not sure as many Nintendo fans want Ocarina of Time to be the "king" forever, as you think. And of course, there is no such thing as the definitive best game of all time. That's all subjective for each and every person. There are just a lot of people that love Link's first 3D adventure. *shrugs*

Well, I mean, Chrono Trigger is the definitive best game of all time, but hey. That's another topic.
Posted: 08/25/11, 05:38:04
@GameDadGrant

Yeah. And I hope I've been clear that I don't find anything wrong with people for whom it's their favorite game of all time. This is absolutely subjective and I'm not such a control freak that I want to dictate to other people how they should feel about any game. And I certainly don't want to talk anyone into loving something less than they already do. What a bastard that'd make me.

But, look, even the fact that we're still having this discussion at all proves to me that the default setting is to call Ocarina the greatest game of all time. If you look back, all I'm arguing is that I don't think it should be considered the de facto greatest, which should be an easy point to make, and yet we go for paragraph after paragraph. Would we have gone on this long if we were talking about Super Metroid or SMB3? I doubt it. It's like a guy has to justify not thinking it's the best. That's... goofy!

So far, I haven't noticed such a strong orthodoxy about Super Mario Galaxy, but if I do notice that, I assure you I'll complain about that, too. And I really, really love Galaxy.
Posted: 08/25/11, 05:56:33
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