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Nostalgia Goggles (I WANT TO SLAP THEM OFF OF PEOPLE) [roundtable]
 
So I was in Anatomy/Physiology lab today, and one guy in my group noticed what was on my shirt:



He asked, "Hey, is that a metroid?"

I said, "Yeah"

He said, "Cool, Super Metroid is one of my favorite games."

"Mine too! :D " I said.

At this time, I'm thinking, 'Holy crap, a Nintenbro at my college! I should introduce him to Neg-'

"Way better than those new first person shooter Prime ones."

...




SO THAT GOT ME THINKING...

Do nostalgia goggles cause a lot of bias towards newer games in a series?

FOR EXAMPLE:



DISCUSS!!!

Note: I love both Super Metroid and Metroid Prime. I actually enjoy the 2-D Metroids more and think Super Metroid is better, but not 'way better' as the guy smugly said.

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Posted: 08/24/11, 20:28:54  - Edited by 
 on: 08/24/11, 22:32:58
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@rebonack

Yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I didn't play Super Metroid until it came out on Virtual Console. I had played through Metroid Prime years before, and I still prefer Super Metroid over it. Both games are great, though.
Posted: 08/24/11, 22:32:30
I don't like when the new Pokemon mix with the old Pokemon. Like the video says, everybody is going to have a different opinion on what looks cool, but each generation has its own subtle differences in art style. I like what Gen 5 did- before beating the Elite Four, you ONLY catch and battle Gen 5 Pokemon. It's like a new world.
Posted: 08/24/11, 22:35:16
Anand said:
@kriswright
The "Nintendo was so much better on the N64" people puzzle me, as well. There were a handful of fantastic games, but man, that was one dry, dry desert. Gamecube, also, to a lesser extent.

Are they talking about *Nintendo* specifically? Because Nintendo was on FIRE that generation. Pretty much anything developed by and/or produced by Nintendo on N64 turned out to be a classic game. How many NINTENDO games on N64 weren't amazing when they came out? Nearly 100% of them, I think. And a lot of those games still hold up today. But not all of them.

Nintendo was more hit-and-miss afterwards, I think.
Posted: 08/24/11, 22:36:28
@GameDadGrant
I guess I was unclear. I meant the system library, as a whole.
Posted: 08/24/11, 22:39:26
@Hinph@Anand

Flip a coin between the two, I say. The PS1 probably has more great games but the N64 probably has more of the very best games of the generation. And it's Nintendo, which matters more to me than anything Sony.

I just dislike that entire generation, though. It's like they had to take a step back so they could take 3 steps forward. It often feels like playing Atari to me, with the clunky controls and ugly visuals. I know there's a lot of gold in there, but the whole generation just doesn't charm me. And that's why I have a hard time understanding the people who think that was the golden age that Nintendo needs to get back to. Say what?
Posted: 08/24/11, 22:41:40  - Edited by 
 on: 08/24/11, 22:43:21
@Anand

Oh.

In that case, yeah. It was a pretty dry desert. But man, when it rained, it poured...!

I think maybe some of those that tout the N64 as being better may stem from that particular crowd being young. They may have been kids during the N64 lifespan, and thus were only able to get/own a handful of games per year. And when they got like, a game (one game, that is) for their birthday or something, it was a HUGE DEAL. And back then, they would have had all the time in the world to play, replay, and completely master it before Christmas or whatever came along and they got another game or two during that same year.

As a kid, a long drought in a system's lifespan is kind of a non-issue. Especially back in the mid-to-late-'90s, when the internet wasn't *quite* as pervasive as it is now.

I feel like I'm rambling now. Am I rambling?
Posted: 08/24/11, 22:43:47
I think when people talk of the N64 as Nintendo's golden era it has a lot to do with Nintendo being at the "top" not just in gameplay but tech as well. This was before online on consoles was huge, and before the HD era, so stuff like Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time weren't look at as "sure they're great, but..." like a lot of Gamecube (lack of online) and Wii (lack of online/HD) games are. N64 had the best graphics, it brought in the analog stick, yada yada. PS1 only beat it techwise with the larger storage space which led to better FMV/etc.

But as far as sheer quality and output I feel like Nintendo is killing it lately as in pre-2011. The only way the N64 era could stand a chance is if you throw in Rareware, but even then, I'll take the Wii. Especially if they bring over Xenoblade.
Posted: 08/24/11, 22:45:33  - Edited by 
 on: 08/24/11, 22:47:38
@Anand

That's how those guys in the IRC chat were. The 'N64 was the best Nintendo console' people.

@TriforceBun

Posted: 08/24/11, 22:47:32
@GameDadGrant

No, you're not rambling. I think you're right about the droughts mattering less to kids. I know I never thought about them until I was in my twenties. And it also helped to have easy-to-access rental stores where you could try games out. That held me over as a kid gamer, for sure.

That said, you could also argue that the N64 droughts don't matter much in retrospect, since we have access to all the games nowadays, and I still don't think the N64 library is as big and as great as it ought to be. It certainly isn't in the same league as the SNES, in my opinion. And I'm not sure I agree that every game Nintendo developed was fantastic - or rather, not as fantastic as others seem to believe them to be. That's probably just a personal preference, though. (EDIT: In fact, I think it's the very definition of a personal preference.)
Posted: 08/24/11, 22:48:37  - Edited by 
 on: 08/24/11, 22:50:19
I really liked the N64, but overall I feel the Gamecube was a much better system. It had top-of-the-line tech, an amazingly comfortable controller (especially the Wavebird!), great local multiplayer games, and a huge lineup of quality 3rd party support that included tons of genres and series that were mysteriously absent from the N64. While fighting games, RPGs and FPS games were almost non-existent on the '64, the 'Cube got (by comparison) a cavalcade of options to choose from.

The Gamecube's only real "sin" was that (outside of Phantasy Star) there was no online stuff whatsoever. Which honestly, I didn't feel was that big of a deal last gen as some make it out to have been.

@kriswright

Yeah, it's definitely subjective. No doubt about that.

Out of curiosity, what games from Nintendo proper did you not think were good?

For me, I wasn't a fan of Yoshi's Story or Pokémon Snap, but I'm apparently in the minority when it comes to those particular titles.
Posted: 08/24/11, 22:53:23  - Edited by 
 on: 08/24/11, 22:55:20
@kriswright
Yeah, early, ugly 3D was a huge step back from SNES gloriousness, for me. I would've killed for another gen of even better 2D refinement. Can you imagine big-budget, hi-res Metroid, Zelda, Mario, etc.?

@GameDadGrant
No, that makes a lot of sense. And it brings us full circle back to... nostalgia.

The N64 highs were very, very high, though.

@Paleo_Orca
The even more puzzling viewpoint to me might be the "GCN is better than the Wii" thing (Stephen). I think the Wii library is similar, but stronger in most cases, even without considering the expanded audience games.
Posted: 08/24/11, 22:53:58
Yoshi's Story was blah, and most of the Pokemon N64 games were just okay. To me, Perfect Dark, SM64, OoT, MM, Paper Mario, Harvest Moon 64, Conker's Bad Fur Day, Banjo-Kazooie, The New Tetris and Star Fox 64 all stand out as really excellent games, and I think they all hold up really well today. There's a bit of adjustment period to the framerate, but besides that, they're hardly big, muddy messes. Super Smash Bros, GoldenEye, Diddy Kong Racing, Mario Kart 64, Mario Tennis, Mario Golf, Mario Party and Kirby 64 have held up pretty well too.
Posted: 08/24/11, 23:00:51
@GameDadGrant Are you really in the minority? Neither are in our top 50 N64 games here...

@Anand But that's because you hate the best Gamecube game, METROID PRIME. It's a tough one for me, I think the Wii has more unique/interesting games, but the Gamecube has a couple of my favorite games ever in Prime 1/2 and Resident Evil 4.
Posted: 08/24/11, 23:00:57
@Anand

About the GCN being better than Wii thing... yeah, it's a little confusing. Nintendo's own efforts have been of higher quality on Wii than they were on Gamecube, I think.

I think it mostly has to do with 3rd party games, because overall, Nintendo's own efforts have been of higher quality on Wii than on the 'Cube. With few exceptions. But last gen, when a 3rd party game came to Gamecube, Nintendo fans weren't really missing out on anything. But *this* gen, when a multiplatform game comes out, the Wii version is almost always the weakest version. (again, with few exceptions)

And then there's the whole "the grass is greener on the other hill" syndrome. Like, maybe action game fans liked No More Heroes and MadWorld on Wii just fine, but when everyone else in the industry is talking up Bayonetta and Darksiders, some gamers may feel "left out."

Just a theory, though. Okay, now I'm sure I'm rambling.

@Zero

I hope I'm not in the minority, because those games aren't... well, to be honest, they aren't *bad.* I just don't think they deserve all the praise I've seen/heard them get, anecdotally.
Posted: 08/24/11, 23:03:46  - Edited by 
 on: 08/24/11, 23:05:18
@Anand

That, too. I'm not a graphics whore, but the PlayStations initial offering is some of the worst stuff I've seen in games.
No one wants to play a completely Mode 7 SNES game either. Maybe thats why I don't like F-Zero.. Hmm.

As "globey" as N64's stuff was, I'd much rather look at that than the tattered mess we've all acknowledged.

@Zero

How can they win on cutscenes though? Yech.

@Paleo_Orca

They're probably 15-19 right now. N64 was the worst era of Nintendo (outside of the bright spots we've all brought up). They know nothing. Foolish children.
Posted: 08/24/11, 23:30:01
@Mr_Mustache Well, they can't, ultimately. But FMV was huge back then. Even I used to get a bit jealous, I worked at TRU at the time and there would be demos running for the 3 platforms (PS1, N64, Saturn.) The Final Fantasy VII demo was pretty drool-worthy, even if it was like 95% FMV. N64 had some cool demos too, but nothing so erm... dramatic? Saturn was a non-contender, at least for my mindshare... although there are some Saturn games I wouldn't mind checking out now.

But would I have enjoyed many PS1 games had I owned it? Who knows. I've tried to go back to some now, but Symphony of the Night and Resident Evil 2 are the only that I have finished. My brother just played through Xenogears though (on my PS3), I want to play it eventually, it looked pretty sick.
Posted: 08/24/11, 23:37:15  - Edited by 
 on: 08/24/11, 23:38:59
@Zero

Did you play Parappa the Rapper? That game is a classic and definitely worth playing if you haven't already.

Also, Square's SHMUP game, Einhander was a blast. Not sure if it still holds up today or not. I remember it being really fun, though.

I was going to suggest you play the remaining Mega Man X games that came out on Playstation (since I know you're a fan of the series), but I assume you've played them by now since those games came out on the Mega Man X Collection on Gamecube last gen. Right?

EDIT: Oh, and be sure to play Crash Team Racing if you haven't already. Fantastic Mario Kart rip-off. It's one of the few Kart-Clones that was actually done RIGHT.

Also, Spyro the Dragon. That is all.
Posted: 08/24/11, 23:43:26  - Edited by 
 on: 08/24/11, 23:44:35
@Zero

I dunno. It seems weird, to me, that the game looks "good" only at special times (ie: cutscenes) and the rest of the game is a cluster-pixel-F. Granted, that stuff is cool...but if your bread and butter looks like butt...right?

N64 looked bad when you got really close to stuff, but Playstation pretty much looked like that all the time.
Posted: 08/24/11, 23:53:20
@GameDadGrant

Well, I gotta be careful here because I sat out that generation, for the most part. Never owned a PS1 or an N64 until much more recently. So my opinions weren't forged at the time, they're impressions from an older guy trying to go back and acquaint himself with the games he missed. Along with that, I should admit that I've only played around 40-50 games for the console, so I'm talking really about my own experience here. Just want to get that out there, in case it matters. (Maybe my own nostalgia comes to bear, eh?)(Wait, no. I never owned an SNES, either, and I love playing SNES games. Super Metroid just recently went into my Top 10 games of all time.)

But take something like Kirby and the Crystal Shards and compare it to Kirby's Adventure on the NES. I'd much rather play the earlier game, wouldn't you? I can't understand the love I hear for Wave Race 64 (and this coming from a man who calls Wii Sports Resort his Game of the Generation). Smash Bros was okay, but was greatly improved in its next iteration. Where the heck was Metroid? If it counts as Nintendo-developed, pretty much all of the Rare games, with the possible exception of GoldenEye, strike me as overrated. DK64, Diddy Kong Racing, Perfect Dark... they just don't do it for me.

Haven't played either Yoshi's Story or Pokemon Snap, though, so I won't comment there. Maybe they were great. Same for the Banjo games, which I hear great things about but which look like boring Collect-a-Thons to me. But I've yet to try them, so no opinion. Conker looks hilarious, though.

And I know saying stuff like this makes a lot of people think less of me, but I think Nintendo fans overrate Ocarina of Time and Mario 64. They're both incredible games, no doubt. You'll never catch me saying they're anything less than superb. But there's a kind of misty-eyed nostalgia for them that I don't share. And I even played Mario 64 when it was new (Loved it. I do have some taste.) But for me, Mario is better when it's full of more linear challenges, like in SMB3 or Galaxy. That's Mario, to me, not all that open world stuff in 64. And Ocarina is a monumental game but... well, maybe I'm just a Wind Waker partisan at this point, but I don't think that ugly ol' Blockarina of Time is the greatest game ever made. It might have been the greatest action/adventure game ever made up to that point. Maybe. But I don't feel it should be casting this long shadow over the later Zelda games. It's monumental and important and fun, but it doesn't dwarf everything after it. For me, that's the very definition of what Paleo was complaining about in the OP.

So it's not so much that I think Nintendo was weak - earlier I did say that the N64 probably had the very best games of the generation and I include Mario and Zelda in that, along with Mario Kart 64, Starfox 64 and a handful of other greats - it's just that I don't think they were quite as strong as others feel they were. To me, the NES/SNES generations are the golden age for Nintendo. I'm with Anand in that I think one more gen of sprite-based games would have been preferable to me. When I evaluate the Nintendo offerings on the N64, I think of a lot of really good games, most of which are painful to look at and which I have very little desire to play again.

One man's opinion.
Posted: 08/24/11, 23:53:22
@GameDadGrant I used to play Parappa at TRU, that was one of the demos! "Kick, punch, it's all in the mind, if you wanna test me you're sure to find, that the things I teach 'ya, are sure to beat 'ya, but nevertheless you'll get a lesson from teacha'!" It's ingrained into my head after weeks and weeks of finding reasons to hang out in the video game aisle when I was supposed to be working. Never played the full thing, although after more advanced stuff like Guitar Hero and Rhythm Heaven, I wonder... would it still be appealing now? It did have a cool style and music, if nothing else, but basic button pressing seems so over now.

Einhander I own. Great game, but not necessarily my favorite of the many, many SHMUPs that I own. And of course, like most of them, I never finished it.

The newest X I have played is 4. It was kind of "ok" and I hear they just get worse and worse, so I'm not going to bother. Would rather play the Zero and ZX games.
Posted: 08/24/11, 23:55:10  - Edited by 
 on: 08/24/11, 23:56:44
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