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Beloved Games you Hate [roundtable]
Much like every other entertainment medium in the planet, every video game save for a few exceptions I could probably count with my two hands, has a consensus attached to it - everyone either loves it, hates it, or something in between. That's because gamers usually expect something specific out of video games, and products either deliver or they don't. However, at the end of the day, we're all different, and sooner or later we're all bound to not follow the general consensus at some point, and video games are no exception.

I made this a roundtable so we can hopefully get some good discussions going, and be baffled at some of our fellow board members' choices. I'm sure some of you will be dumbfounded even at this OP.

So, post games everyone loves and you hate. Of course you can do any amount of games you want, and include descriptions only if you see fit. You can also add games you acknowledge to be well made games, but just aren't for you. Also, feel free to include games everyone hates and you love, I just didn't make that part of the main topic because it's not that common for that to happen. When games are generally considered horrible, it's usually because they're just not well made from a technical standpoint - no one can stand horrible cameras, textures, frame-rates or glitches abound. But if you can find an example of this, go ahead.

This should be good. Also, sorry if it's been done before. I don't remember if it has. Anyway, I'll start.

I Hate:

Kid Icarus

I hate this game. Granted I didn't play it in its entirety, I was fed up with it far before the final stretch of the game, but I completely disliked what I played of it. It stole the Metroid engine and made me go around in very generic looking stages attacking enemies with lame attacks. And constantly scrolling upwards (I know not the entire game is like this, but still) is so annoying in 2D a platforming game like this.

Animal Crossing

I had never played Animal Crossing until a few months ago. It didn't look like my type of game at all, so I steered clear. In what seemed like a call from destiny, a friend of mine recently let me borrow City Folk and said - here, you have to play it. You can't go on with your life until you play Animal Crossing. So I did. And, wow. What the hell do you do in this game? Seriously, though, I can see how people could get into this game. It's a good simulation game, and I can definitely see the Nintendo touch. I can feel it, almost. But the game bored me to no end. I put a couple hours into it and I never wanna see it again. Everyone says all Animal Crossing games are the same, so I feel I am entitled to say I hate the entire series.

Zelda II

I'm not completely alone on this one, I know, but it's still generally regarded as a good game. It's not a fun game at all. It's comprised of all these different "pieces" that ultimately don't add up at all. Towns, overworld with RPG-esque battles, experience points, AND side-scrolling gameplay? It never comes together, it's terrible. It doesn't help that it's extremely hard. But you know what's even harder? Finding a reason that justifies actually beating this game. Fuck it.

I hate the following more than the rest...

Gears of War

I should clarify before I begin, I haven't played the second one. And I don't want to. As for the first one, I played a substantial amount of the campaign and a bit of multiplayer, too. The multiplayer's alright, it's well designed, the problem is it has to work within the confines of the design of the game (of course), so... it sucks. First of all, the game is gray. I don't care what you have to say - it's gray. Yeah, it has some beautiful textures, but it's so unappealing to look at. I know people often complain about this in realistic HD games, but Gears is easily the worst offender in this aspect. So you already have a raised eyebrow from the minute you fire up the game, and then you start to play it. Your character moves like a tank (the "worse than Leon S. Kennedy" variety of tanks), the environments all look the same (of course) and are like 2x2. You have to take cover constantly and fire generic weapons at generic aliens. Yeah, it's a third person shooter which is kind of original, but it might as well have been an FPS, it's hard to tell the difference honestly. "Stop 'n' pop" doesn't make a shooting game more strategic - it makes it more boring.

And there's soon to be THREE of these games! Damn! Gears represents everything that's wrong with this generation of gaming (it only needs a 99 cent iOS game and we're golden), and people love it.

I'll post more games if they come to mind. Looking forward to your responses!

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Posted: 05/21/11, 20:02:30  - Edited by 
 on: 05/21/11, 20:07:41
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No? Try reading the thread. I'm not arguing the merits of Halo with him.
Posted: 05/23/11, 06:49:49

We all know you prefer Dual Analog as well. And whether you're directly talking about Halo or not, your post count in threads where the word Halo is mentioned is like 100 times that of other threads. It's pretty apparent where your loyalties lie.
Posted: 05/23/11, 06:57:08  - Edited by 
 on: 05/23/11, 06:57:29

Yeah I like the series, so? I'm not derailing this thread talking about it. I am discussing (or trying to) Perfect Dark.

The reason I said I preferred DA was because of the assertion that I simply am not proficient with Mouse and Keyboard. That's not the case.


At this point it's obvious you are just reading single lines of my posts and disputing them with equal amounts faulty logic and irrelevant points. I am just going to stop responding to you in this thread because it's obviously just going to continue the cycle.
Posted: 05/23/11, 07:00:53  - Edited by 
 on: 05/23/11, 07:17:07
Jargon said:

We all know you prefer Dual Analog as well. And whether you're directly talking about Halo or not, your post count in threads where the word Halo is mentioned is like 100 times that of other threads. It's pretty apparent where your loyalties lie.
It's nice to know I'm not the only one who has noticed this.

But yeah Mega Man. Umm....yeah. Another series I've always wanted to like but couldn't was Mortal Kombat. I love the characters and the world and the lore, but the controls in those games suck. I'm talking about the old MK games back in the day. I haven't played much of the newer ones.

MmmK bye.
Posted: 05/23/11, 07:01:58  - Edited by 
 on: 05/23/11, 07:19:22
stephen08 said:

Well I've talked about it a bit before but in short all Wii FPS use a bounding box model. What this means is that the pointer is essentially controlling two things: the camera and the reticule within the bounding box. So as a result you start to use the pointer like an analog stick when you reach the outskirts of the bounding box at which point it is basically on par with DA. Within the box aiming is nice (one of the reasons why RE4 controls so nicely) because the pointer is just moving the cursor and not the entire screen. So in order to get that precision you need a large bounding box but in order to turn quickly you need a small bounding box. It's like pick your poison, do you want poor aiming or slow turning? I experimented long and hard with the Conduit's options to try and find a nice butter zone for this but it always felt sloppy. I think that's why Nintendo had the lock-on incorporated with MP3. It just wouldn't feel good otherwise..

Honestly I can't say I've had an issue. I think I've got a pretty small bounding box in my GE setup, but I was also able to adjust the cursor speed. End result is I can turn on a dime and aim with perfect precision. Dad hates my guts whenever he plays against me, because whenever he manages to get behind me without me realising he's there, the same sequence of events plays out:

1. He opens fire (Generally with horribly inaccurate results, I'm usually moving).
2. Now alerted to incoming fire, I jink sideways
3. Quick-turn 180 degrees.
4. Ironsight-zoom.
5. Head shot.

All of the above takes place within a second or 2.

Hell ask any of the others here who've played with me. I'm the freaking Angel of Death. I'm never that good on any DA shooter. Or even PC shooters. Never ever.

Maybe Conduit doesn't have the same breadth of control customisation options GE does, I dunno.
Posted: 05/23/11, 11:18:54  - Edited by 
 on: 05/23/11, 11:27:37
I think I started this whole can o' worms! Time to elaborate on what I love about PD:

The game is nose-deep in content to a ridiculous degree. It's sort of like what SSBM and SSBB did with fighters, throwing in an insane amount to do and letting players set up scenarios to their liking. Some slights raised against the game in this thread--like debating the quality of one weapon vs the other--are sort of missing the point when you can customize whatever weapons you want in the game. For instance, a buddy and I have recently gotten accustomed to using all pistols for a little more control and somewhat less chaos. Complaining that the Falcon 2 is no match for the Farsight makes me wonder what sort of weapon set-up you have for the simulator matches. Similarly, if the sims get too dangerous, just tone them down a tad--just because you have the option to give them insane accuracy doesn't mean you have to do it!

And honestly, I never had any sort of problem with the controls in the game; this entire argument/point is new to me. The "springy" manual aim (where it recenters) is pretty much designed to mirror where the position of the analogue stick itself is, so it still feels intuitive to me (although it can make hitting tiny targets a little difficult, admittedly). For the most part, though, I generally do slight adjustments to the aiming with the C-buttons and let auto-target do the small corrections.

But beyond that--sure, some mission objectives can be a little obscure, but I find that type of gameplay to be very rewarding. You can get a good idea of what you're supposed to do by reading up on the objective details and there's still enough of an improvisational aspect to keep things unpredictable. After all, you're a secret agent and not everything goes smoothly on these dangerous missions. I also love how the additional difficulties add more objectives that make sense towards your goal, such as eliminating rooftop snipers or shutting off extra security measures that make sense to be there. The levels are nonlinear without being maze-like (aside from maybe the Villa and the Pelagic II), the locations are varied, and the objectives are generally a lot of fun.

And the guns, wow, what a set! From the novel and clever secondary uses to the memorable sounds and visuals of shooting each one, I'm a big fan of the weapon selection in PD. It's nice that there's so many guns because that only gives you more and more ways to experiment in the combat simulator: mines only, Laptop Guns, Farsight, pistols, automatics, fly-by-wire rockets, cloaking guns, combat boosts, N-bombs, proximity pinball grenades, throwing knives, etc. Starting off without a gun doesn't bug me at all, seeing as how it's not particularly difficult to disarm an opponent and then use their weapon against them. It also makes for a frantic rush to the next weapon location.

What frustrates me (bringing this back on-topic) about most modern FPSes is that they don't even try to provide the player with the insane amount of options PD does. Between the target range/Carrington Institute "training" areas, co-op, counter-op, 3 varied difficulties (also in co-op and counter-op), secret unlockable missions, adjustable bot difficulty and behavior, full control over weapons, creative secondary features on around 40 weapons, adjustable music, characters, options, a plethora of multiplayer stages, time-based cheats, personal player statistics and medals, and hidden cheeses, there's a ludicrous amount to do in the game. So even if you take issue with some of the gameplay elements (in an 11 year old game using a N64 controller, mind you), why can't other FPSes take those advancements and incorporate them into today's gaming scene, one arguably more centric on multiplayer than ever?

Also, lotta EarthBound hate in this thread! That's one game that started off underrated, got a vocal cult following, and now people think it's overrated! That's okay, I feel the same way about a lot of other games: Shadow of the Colossus, Beyond Good & Evil, and Portal all come to mind (although I don't "hate" any of those).

How could someone not like Mega Man? It's so...video game-y. It's like not liking Mario!

Know what game I do truly HATE?


Snood is the worst game ever. I despise Snood. It's misery in a horrible-looking box.

Frack, just look at it. Could they have picked an uglier...everything!?

Want to make a game like Snood? It's easy! Here are the exact steps the creator of this game took:

-Take Bust-a-Move (a quality puzzle game)
-Remove everything fun and sensible about the puzzle design
-Remove everything fun and sensible about the art design, replacing bubble enemies with disembodied heads drawn by third-graders
-Barf out a bunch of these heads into a stage and call it a day
-Make everything else completely hideous in every possible way. If anything looks remotely appealing, you're doing it wrong.

There is no reason for this game to exist. It literally does everything worse than Bust-a-Move, it's a shameless rip-off, and it's incredibly, incredibly ugly and awful and everyone was playing it in the 90's and I FREAKING HATE SNOOD SO MUCH.

Posted: 05/23/11, 17:27:31  - Edited by 
 on: 05/23/11, 17:34:44

So if you are quick turning that means the cursor is fairly central to the screen at all times then right? That the bounding box is really small? This set-up can work but then you are essentially using the IR of the Wiimote to emulate an analog stick in that it turns the camera and thus limits it's pointing functionality to be a very small window on the screen.

I don't see any way for there to be both quick movement of the camera and precision of IR pointing. All of the FPS games basic design seem to pit those two actions against one another.
Posted: 05/23/11, 17:34:34
Sorry I'm late. Here are the beloved games I hate:

I'm a huge JRPG gamer, but I hate me some FFVII and X. Yes, I HATE the two most popular games in the series. I also hate Skies of Arcadia. Well, to clarify, I hate that it is a charming game trapped in an archaic game's body.

I hate most FPSs: Halo, CoD, etc. I also hate Gears of War.

I hate animal crossing each and every time i buy it and I will probably keep buying with each iteration just to see if I ever get what's to love.

I hate GTA and other crime-sims, mostly from a moral standpoint. I similarly hate most shooters that attempt to depict war situations realistically for moral reasons.

I hate the Kingdom Hearts games (the main ones are the only ones I've played), but just like Animal Crossing, I will keep buying them just to see what all the fuss is about.
Posted: 05/23/11, 17:47:09  - Edited by 
 on: 05/23/11, 18:00:11
@FINlos What about VIII and IX?


It's not so much that some weapons are better than others but rather that once you get a more powerful weapon on the map (and the two adjacent ammo crates) you are pretty well unstoppable for a long time. When we were playing it wasn't so much that the sims were too good but rather they managed to corner us with better weapons off the spawn and there was nothing we could do about it except try to run in and disarm them which does not work even when they have something like automatic weapons which can be found in basic weapon sets.

The secondary functions of the weapons were neat but often times they made the original firing mode obsolete. Why would you ever not have threat detector on with the K7 Avenger? Or Auto Target with the Farsight? Or the proximity pinball over the 4 second long fuse (which is an eternity)? In those cases it's like what's the point of having 2 modes? Some weapons did make good use of it like the Dragon, Super Dragon, and Laptop gun.

I was having control issues with the 360 port of the game so I was using a modern controller but the mechanics couldn't be changed without drastically overhauling them to the point where I'm sure purists would get quite upset.

The game does have a lot of options but that doesn't make it stand up to FPS of today. It has these core missteps that have been fixed time and time again now. But I do agree in that more titles should allow for the level of content and customization that was seen in PD.
Posted: 05/23/11, 17:49:34  - Edited by 
 on: 05/23/11, 18:20:13

IX is great, VIII was better than VII with generally likable characters and an interesting plot. My favorite is IV (Cecil rules) and VI and XII tie for second with me.
Posted: 05/23/11, 18:04:56
@stephen08 I just popped in Prime 3 because I understand what you are saying but wanted to feel it for myself again. The thing is, you are technically right in that removing the bounding box makes the motion function like another analog stick. Where you aren't right is that you seem to be insisting that this makes it the same thing so motion has no benefits. And maybe to some people this is true. There is just a level of subtlety that I can get from directly moving my hand versus moving a thumb stick. Maybe I just have more control over my hand than I do my thumb, I dunno. I've always been terrible at dual analog and I picked up Prime 3 aiming in minutes. And although you aren't technically pointing at things in the same way that you would be a light gun shooter, the sensation of pointing gives you a direct reference point for point and aim shooting that moving analog sticks can't give you. Well, except that you are kind of pointing directly, the cursor moves to where you point, it's just that when you play no bounding box like me the screen also moves, so it takes a bit more subtlety than just pointing directly at something. That might throw some people off, but it feels pretty solid to me, I can point where I want to pretty easily as in most cases what I'm trying to shoot doesn't require massive turning anyway. It really only takes subtle adjustments to hit anything that is on the screen. The whole thing feels more seamless to me in a way that dual analog never did. And it kind of seems to me that most people feel the same, not just Wii "defenders" but the review industry as a whole, many of whom never particularly supported the Wii (or at least, stopped supporting it much by the time quality Wii FPS came around.)

I'd honestly like to see online leaderboards for a Wii FPS that uses both control methods track what control method is used. It wouldn't really prove anything because it still might come down to the type of people playing the games having certain preferences, but I'd bet that most of the people at the top would be using IR/motion. Does Goldeneye track anything like this?
Posted: 05/23/11, 19:27:34  - Edited by 
 on: 05/23/11, 19:28:09

I dunno. I can't quite explain it. All I know is it works, and it works damn well.


No, not as far as I know.
Posted: 05/23/11, 23:08:51
Good post. Yeah the only FPS games I can think of with the insane amount of customization in PD's local multi is the Timesplitters series, which as we all know was made by former Rare people that worked on PD and Goldeneye. And I loved PD's guns. The laptop and farsight were pretty awesome. I thought PD's single player wasn't as good as Goldeneye's (Elvis Rare, really?), but its multi was far, far better. It's unfortunate that Rare butchered the sequel so bad after they left Nintendo. PD could have been a great series.
Posted: 05/23/11, 23:19:23  - Edited by 
 on: 05/23/11, 23:21:31

The thing is that when you start to use the Wiimote like an analog stick the argument of better precision goes out the window since now you have to cope with the reticule moving and then work to recenter it. That's still not accounting for the much harder to reach buttons on the remote itself and if you start mapping functions to motion you start muddying the input channels even more. If you like it that's totally fine but saying it's superior is very suspect. I can get behind it being better than DA for like a rail shooter because there accuracy is paramount. But FPS? I can't get behind that sentiment at all and I think my reasons are perfectly valid.
Posted: 05/23/11, 23:19:34
I think the RE4 Wii approach should be used more often. Keep panning on the stick and just treat the reticule as you would in a shooting gallery (maybe with some quick turn buttons a la Lost Planet). It's fun and super-accurate.
Posted: 05/23/11, 23:34:16  - Edited by 
 on: 05/23/11, 23:34:44
stephen08 said:

The thing is that when you start to use the Wiimote like an analog stick the argument of better precision goes out the window since now you have to cope with the reticule moving and then work to recenter it.


Again, popped it in earlier and although I understand what you are saying from a technical standpoint, I think you're missing something. You don't have to "work" to recenter it because falling back into a central position is second nature (or becomes so very early on) since you're pointing at the center of the screen. And this isn't an issue at all when it comes to vertical shooting.

I kind of feel like you are imagining Prime 3 expert controls (have you used them much?) as sort of wildly pointing all over the screen. The truth is, outside of the rare cases where you need to do a quick 180 or whatever, your pointer isn't moving much from the center position. You make subtle movements to turn and can quick get right back to center because it does involve where you are pointing with IR. Strafing is also super easy because you're using the analog to control the left/right movement and making very minor adjustments to the pointing to stay on target. I never really experienced this fluidity with dual analog.

Again though, I have no idea what is actually more accurate, and I think some kind of studies using games that have both would need to be done to find out. But what I do know is that it feels so much nicer to me. And while this is the argument dual analog fans often use when putting it next to keyboard and mouse, that is a case where the accuracy benefits of keyboard and mouse is undeniable.
Posted: 05/24/11, 00:12:59  - Edited by 
 on: 05/24/11, 00:13:21
I don't wanna be another "that guy," but from the way some of you describe it, it makes it seem like some of you don't really get Halo.

I used to be a big hater. I thought the campaign was boring as hell (still think that of the first few games unless you're playing with friends). However, once the multiplayer clicks with you - which can take a while (it did for me) - I don't think you'd be saying the things you're saying.

The game is a battle of wits - similar in a lot of ways to fighting games. It rewards teamwork and smart play. It's extremely visceral once you get the hang of it, and to discard it as crap as some of you have is pretty ignorant IMO. And heck - it's the modern day Perfect Dark in terms of features and customizability.
Posted: 05/24/11, 01:17:10  - Edited by 
 on: 05/24/11, 01:18:23
Sue me. I love Halo, too. I suck at it, but I love it.
Posted: 05/24/11, 03:23:52

I played through MP3 using expert controls, even parts of Prime 1. You are saying the pointing controls are subtle movements which is true meaning you are using a small bounding box thus not utilizing the pointing functionality. We are going around in circles here.
Posted: 05/24/11, 10:05:42
Paperclyp said:
I don't wanna be another "that guy," but from the way some of you describe it, it makes it seem like some of you don't really get Halo.

I used to be a big hater. I thought the campaign was boring as hell (still think that of the first few games unless you're playing with friends). However, once the multiplayer clicks with you - which can take a while (it did for me) - I don't think you'd be saying the things you're saying.

The game is a battle of wits - similar in a lot of ways to fighting games. It rewards teamwork and smart play. It's extremely visceral once you get the hang of it, and to discard it as crap as some of you have is pretty ignorant IMO. And heck - it's the modern day Perfect Dark in terms of features and customizability.
See to me, Halo is one of the best Nintendo games not on a Nintendo system. The core elements are drawn from the action games of yore, and the way that it blends them together is unique and unlike any other FPS. People trash it because it is popular, and because it has a steep learning curve which makes it difficult to partake in all the exhilarating types of action the game provides.

Trashing a game that you've barely played or don't understand is annoying to those that enjoy it greatly, because you can't even engage in substantive debate. It would be like me coming in here and trashing MH3, a game I have little knowledge on and no experience with, and getting pissy when people contest my "opinion".
Posted: 05/24/11, 15:25:57
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