Much like every other entertainment medium in the planet, every video game save for a few exceptions I could probably count with my two hands, has a consensus attached to it - everyone either loves it, hates it, or something in between. That's because gamers usually expect something specific out of video games, and products either deliver or they don't. However, at the end of the day, we're all different, and sooner or later we're all bound to not follow the general consensus at some point, and video games are no exception.

I made this a roundtable so we can hopefully get some good discussions going, and be baffled at some of our fellow board members' choices. I'm sure some of you will be dumbfounded even at this OP.

So, post games everyone loves and you hate. Of course you can do any amount of games you want, and include descriptions only if you see fit. You can also add games you acknowledge to be well made games, but just aren't for you. Also, feel free to include games everyone hates and you love, I just didn't make that part of the main topic because it's not that common for that to happen. When games are generally considered horrible, it's usually because they're just not well made from a technical standpoint - no one can stand horrible cameras, textures, frame-rates or glitches abound. But if you can find an example of this, go ahead.

This should be good. Also, sorry if it's been done before. I don't remember if it has. Anyway, I'll start.

I Hate:

Kid Icarus

I hate this game. Granted I didn't play it in its entirety, I was fed up with it far before the final stretch of the game, but I completely disliked what I played of it. It stole the Metroid engine and made me go around in very generic looking stages attacking enemies with lame attacks. And constantly scrolling upwards (I know not the entire game is like this, but still) is so annoying in 2D a platforming game like this.

Animal Crossing

I had never played Animal Crossing until a few months ago. It didn't look like my type of game at all, so I steered clear. In what seemed like a call from destiny, a friend of mine recently let me borrow City Folk and said - here, you have to play it. You can't go on with your life until you play Animal Crossing. So I did. And, wow. What the hell do you do in this game? Seriously, though, I can see how people could get into this game. It's a good simulation game, and I can definitely see the Nintendo touch. I can feel it, almost. But the game bored me to no end. I put a couple hours into it and I never wanna see it again. Everyone says all Animal Crossing games are the same, so I feel I am entitled to say I hate the entire series.

Zelda II

I'm not completely alone on this one, I know, but it's still generally regarded as a good game. It's not a fun game at all. It's comprised of all these different "pieces" that ultimately don't add up at all. Towns, overworld with RPG-esque battles, experience points, AND side-scrolling gameplay? It never comes together, it's terrible. It doesn't help that it's extremely hard. But you know what's even harder? Finding a reason that justifies actually beating this game. Fuck it.

I hate the following more than the rest...

Gears of War

I should clarify before I begin, I haven't played the second one. And I don't want to. As for the first one, I played a substantial amount of the campaign and a bit of multiplayer, too. The multiplayer's alright, it's well designed, the problem is it has to work within the confines of the design of the game (of course), so... it sucks. First of all, the game is gray. I don't care what you have to say - it's gray. Yeah, it has some beautiful textures, but it's so unappealing to look at. I know people often complain about this in realistic HD games, but Gears is easily the worst offender in this aspect. So you already have a raised eyebrow from the minute you fire up the game, and then you start to play it. Your character moves like a tank (the "worse than Leon S. Kennedy" variety of tanks), the environments all look the same (of course) and are like 2x2. You have to take cover constantly and fire generic weapons at generic aliens. Yeah, it's a third person shooter which is kind of original, but it might as well have been an FPS, it's hard to tell the difference honestly. "Stop 'n' pop" doesn't make a shooting game more strategic - it makes it more boring.

And there's soon to be THREE of these games! Damn! Gears represents everything that's wrong with this generation of gaming (it only needs a 99 cent iOS game and we're golden), and people love it.

I'll post more games if they come to mind. Looking forward to your responses!

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@deathly_hallows Fair enough.

SEE GUYS, THIS IS HOW YOU DO IT.

Zero said:

But for many of us it wasn't awkward at all. I'm not going to say your experience is invalid, but I will say that mine was completely the opposite. Prime 3 controls felt like 100 times smoother than Prime 1 and 2 for me. In fact, in my mind when I'm rating the games, I can think of a lot of things that the other two did better, but Prime 3 always wins out in combat/controls.

Exactly my experience. In fact, I'll just outright say I thought MP3's controls were elegant.

And if it's the RE4 combo of analog camera and IR shooting that I like, then so be it. I'm not picky about this stuff. The Wiimote has a nunchuck for a reason. I think that setup is demonstrably better, for me, than old-fashioned dual analog. And I had waaaaay more fun with it. That said, I will agree with deathly_hallows, a bit, that a game designed for DA isn't necessarily better with IR. RE4:Wii Edition is a bit of a cakewalk compared to the original. But that just proves the point, imho, that Wiimote controls are better. Build a new Resident Evil game from the ground up for that set up and we're in business.

I guess the thing with MP3 was, they could've very, very easily have offered Classic Controller support. With some games it's going to be harder to do that, but they could've just made everyone happy by providing both. I think that now, they could feel more comfortable providing both, since they're not trying to actively push motion control on people.

Also, let me throw in Terranigma. I had always heard so much hype around it, and how it was so similar to Illusion of Gaia (being the third game in the Soul Blazer series), but I thought it was pretty underwhelming. The most compelling part about Illusion of Gaia were the characters, side stories, and overall atmosphere, but Terranigma just felt like a basic action RPG with few surprises. The first hour or so of that game is absolutely incredible, and then it just turned into this hum drum kind of action RPG. (So I guess I don't *hate* it, but it was pretty underwhelming)

Wow I took a break from this thread at just the right time, haha.

I had some very big issues with Prime 3 but none of it had to do with controls. I thought it handled smooth as butta with the exception of some of the rotational movements. Although it would always feel like my fault if it was off so I was forgiving. And yeah, how unbalanced Resident Wiivil *chuckle* was, was a great testament to the far greater level of speed and accuracy offered by the IR. Ecspecially considering how flawless it controlled on the Cube.

Red Steel 2 is also a great example. Imagine trying to shoot the lockers open with DA. It feels so good using that it to shoot like 8 of those little panels in about a seconds worth of time. DA just can't keep up with it and that's a fact.

Never saw the enjoyment in World of Warcraft - I played a bit and was waiting for the fun parts. Stopped after a few hours.

I've played some of the online FPS and while they're fun I can't see playing it every day to death just to get high scores or whatever. Now and then but I need something more to quench my gamer's palette.

I like the roguelikes but tend to lose interest in games within the genre. Etrian Odyssey comes to mind. Great game but after a while of the same monsters with swapped stats I don't feel like I'm investigating anything.

@Shadowlink

Well I've talked about it a bit before but in short all Wii FPS use a bounding box model. What this means is that the pointer is essentially controlling two things: the camera and the reticule within the bounding box. So as a result you start to use the pointer like an analog stick when you reach the outskirts of the bounding box at which point it is basically on par with DA. Within the box aiming is nice (one of the reasons why RE4 controls so nicely) because the pointer is just moving the cursor and not the entire screen. So in order to get that precision you need a large bounding box but in order to turn quickly you need a small bounding box. It's like pick your poison, do you want poor aiming or slow turning? I experimented long and hard with the Conduit's options to try and find a nice butter zone for this but it always felt sloppy. I think that's why Nintendo had the lock-on incorporated with MP3. It just wouldn't feel good otherwise.

@kriswright

RE4 is a bad example to prove a point against DA because first RE4 was single analog, and second the Wiimote fundamentally added a new mechanic which made the whole game play smoother. It let you have a ghost reticule on the screen at all times and when you aimed it would snap to this location. This allowed you to line up targets before aiming in the game which was not possible in the GCN version. It could be done with DA too though. Look at something like Gears of War. It plays far smoother than Resident Evil 4 and part of the reason is it allows you to get a rough idea of your aim before you pull left trigger to get the precision. With enough experience you can line-up shots pretty much all the time.

WrathOfSamus777 said:

Sorry, no I didn't bring Halo up before you did. I think you you need to re-read the thread and what you posted.

Better yet, I'll read what you posted right before that:
Bpumpkin said:

Yes I know, we Nintendo fanboys cling to our games of yesteryear. Someday we'll catch up with the times of dumbed-down regenerating health, uninspired level design, and generic space marines. Someday. You can pray for us in the meantime.

Gee what title could you possibly be trying to bait me with there?
BPumpkin said:

Not just accuracy. When it comes to FPS games everything is better control-wise with KB/M. So yeah, it pretty much does make it better. Just cuz you don't prefer or want to to take the time to learn KB/M controls is irrelevant.

Uh no. This is just incorrect. Take away the accuracy advantage and what is better about KB+M? The nice ergonomic feel of a keyboard?

BPumpkin said:

Again, that's not what I said. I never said the Half-Life series is not in competition with other games on the market. Go back and re-read what I said.

Stephen The Great said:

What you said was that HL1 and 2 absolutely destroy their competition.

WrathOfSamus777 said:

And Half-Life and Half-Life 2 destroy all FPS games in the single-player department.

Bpumpkin said:

Again you mis-characterize what I said. I never said I disliked developers that have abandoned local multi in their FPS games. I just said that PD was not designed to be played online originally. It was designed for local split-screen multi. Read what I wrote. And just cuz you're not good playing against bots or don't like playing against bots is irrelevant. Maybe you're just not very good at FPS games, I don't know.

Ah the old "You don't like it you must suck at it argument". Rest assured I have beaten PD on the hardest difficulty before. This is an issue of poor game design. Again, it wouldn't matter if we were on the same screen, the bots act the same way and you spawn without a way to defend yourself. I haven't even played the game online against anyone but friends and it was totally broken. Come to think of it, it would be MORE broken split-screen because you could instantly know where the other guy is and what weapons he has.

I couldn't get into the GCN Metroid Prime because of the control scheme, and now the trilogy is one of my favourite EVER, all thanks to the wiimote/nunchuck.

PogueSquadron said:

I think that now, they could feel more comfortable providing both, since they're not trying to actively push motion control on people.

DKCRs unnecessary motion controls say otherwise.

If this thread is going to completely devolve into a Dual Analog debate, I think people need to be reminded that the two examples people are clinging to, Metroid prime and Resident Evil 4, were never dual analog to begin with. Metroid Prime mapped the C-Stick to weapons/visors, and if you wanted to look around (up/down) you had to stop, and hold down a trigger to toggle between player/camera movement,and RE4 made a similar tradeoff between player/camera movement. So MP3 does control way better than the other 2, but only because they were fairly antiquated to begin with. The same goes for RE4, but RE4 is a design choice, there's no technical reason for RE4 to force you to stop moving to shoot.

I've given up on FPS on the Wii, primarily because of the Bounding Box style aiming. I think they have the potential to work with fixed reticule aiming, but people like the idea of pointing the Wiimote where they want to shoot. As long as that's the case, all this Wii is great for FPS talk is meaningless to me.

I tried Halo several times on the Xbox and hated it. But then I played the PC version and found it rather enjoyable. Having been a PC gamer for years (I played Quake 2 withe some of the best guys in the world) dual analog just feels horrible to me. I'm sure I could get used to it eventually, but why?

I personally feel that dual analog is holding back controls in gaming, but to each his own. I'm sure thousands of years ago there were primitive warriors who preferred rocks as weapons over spears, but they eventually got the point.

@stephen08
Haha sorry Stephen. Just because someone mentions space marines doesn't mean they're talking about Halo. Hate to break it to you, but generic space marines and uninspired level design could characterize any number of shooters on the market, not just Halo. Sorry.

And why are calling bpumpkin? I don't know if you noticed but I changed my screen name.


A mouse is way more dynamic not only in accuracy but also in turning, which is very important in FPS games. It makes a world of difference.

I was talking about the multi-player in PD. It sounds to me like you just aren't very good at it so you write it off as just being bad, the same with using KB/M controls. You should try to be a little more open-minded.

I think it's prettytelling that the entire point of this thread is to hate on beloved games and despite a laundry list of games considered some of the best of all time, no one got upset. Then Halo gets brought up and the fanboys come running (and I'm sorry if that term offends you, but let's be honest, only a fanboy would sign up for a website just because they heard someone was talking bad about their favorite game). It makes you guys look more than a little insecure. And this is from someone who thinks the original Halo is a classic.

@Jargon
The only person debating Halo's listing in this thread is Dapper Dick who was a member well before this thread was made.

WrathOfSamus777 said:

@stephen08
Haha sorry Stephen. Just because someone mentions space marines doesn't mean they're talking about Halo. Hate to break it to you, but generic space marines and uninspired level design could characterize any number of shooters on the market, not just Halo. Sorry.

I mean it could. But let's be honest, you were talking about Halo. Or at the very least listed a series of issues with games most notable of which is Halo. The fact I refer to it in the next subsequent post when your post was directed at me, a noted Halo fan who you have antagonized numerous times should not be surprising.

BPumpkin said:

A mouse is way more dynamic not only in accuracy but also in turning, which is very important in FPS games. It makes a world of difference.

Turn speed is your argument? That's not really all that different than accuracy considering that the reticule is fixed to the camera. You can set analog sticks to be really sensitive too and they are just as fast as a mouse. Let's keep in mind though what you said was that KB+M was superior in all facets. Which is a little extreme considering if you take away the aiming from a first person shooter you are left with manuevering a character in a 3D space. Would you rather use a Mouse and Keyboard to play Mario 64 as well? Or admit that KB+M is not superior for every single aspect of a FPS?

BPumpkin said:

I was talking about the multi-player in PD. It sounds to me like you just aren't very good at it so you write it off as just being bad, the same with using KB/M controls. You should try to be a little more open-minded.

Nope, I can play PC shooters just fine. I just prefer DA. You should also recall back to when I posted that we spawn killed the bots in the exact same way. It's not hard to do because the game is poorly designed. You assume way too much when I have outlined numerous times what the issues are. It's not terribly difficult to grab the Super Dragon and just spam unarmed people off the spawn. It is however very difficult to break. Also with that amount of auto-aim, and unbalanced weapon sandbox I find it very hard to believe there is a huge skill distribution with Perfect Dark to begin with.

@Earendil

I see what you did there... lol.

So... could the RE4:Wii control scheme not work in a standard FPS style game? When I was playing it, I thought multiplayer with that set up would be amazing. What's the reason it wouldn't work?

@stephen08 But his only posts are in this thread, he must have been LURKING.

@kriswright

Well what's key is that you aren't really aiming until you enter the firing mode at which point you instantly snap to that aiming vector and now you are controlling the aim via he remote. You don't however move the camera with the pointer, you use the analog stick which requires you to remain stationary. It works very well there but in most (if not all?) FPS games you move and shoot typically. It could work with another analog stick I suppose but it might be super awkward.

@stephen08
Sorry Stephen don't go putting words in my mouth. If I would have meant Halo specifically, I would have said Halo. I was speaking broadly about many different games within the shooter genre. You're way too oversensitive. The more you go on about this the more ridiculous you look, especially now that you had one of your Halo fanboy buddies sign up to Negative World to help you defend Halo in this thread. That's really sad man.

No way are analog sticks as quick as a mouse for turning around. Not even close. The more you post about this, the more it becomes pretty obvious that you have little to no experience playing FPS games with KB/M. You can do a 180 in the blink of an eye with a KB/M setup. A little flick of the wrist is all it takes. And I was talking about KB/M in the context of FPS games. I think that's obvious. I wasn't talking about platformers and you know that. Again, don't go putting words in my mouth, thanks.

Yes I know you prefer D/A. That's not the debate here. What Stephen prefers is irrelevant. It's what is better, and KB/M controls for FPS games are unquestionably better. Sure some people may prefer D/A controls, but like I said earlier in the thread, they will get destroyed against anyone skilled at the same game with a KB/M setup. And I'm pretty sure you can turn auto-aim off in PD.

Haven't you guys had this exact fight like 5 times on this message board? Get a room.

@Jargon
Oh we've had this discussion many times, here and at IGN. I do have to say he's never to my knowledge recruited his gaming buddies to come in and help him defend Halo's honor. That's a new high, or low, for him.

Has the thread been ruined? I hope not. Tis a good thread.

OK I'll name another game series that I don't like:

Mega Man. OK I don't hate it but it's always struck me as bland. Although, I have limited play time with any of the Mega Man games. I have little motivation to seriously try any of them out though. Plus, Capcom has whored the series out something awful which never is a good sign for a series.