Hey guys,

So I feel a little bad about kind of poo-pooing video games on the last podcast episode. Marsh asked innocently why we play video games, and there I go saying it's self-indulgent and useless and akin to mastubation (if you're wondering "wtf?", listen to the episode!).

My topic on the next podcast is going to be, well, anecdotes about games having a positive impact on our lives. I want to redeem myself by having more good and positive stuff to say about this hobby. I've got a few things to say myself on the topic already.

I don't know yet who's going to be with me on the next episode, and I don't know if I'm being pessimistic, but I'm unsure if we'll have enough to say to fill 20 minutes, the topic lending itself perhaps less than usual to discussion. So I thought it would be a good occasion to try and read listener comments on the podcast!

Do you have a story to share? Do you want it to be read on the podcast? Then post it in this thread, and that just may happen!

Thanks for participating!

URL to share (right click and copy)

Guillaume said:

@Anand

As I tried and failed to explain in episode 8 of the podcast, I do think you gain something by seeing the world through the author's eyes, and by being exposed to a work of art from someone trying to say something. Whereas games are too busy trying to emulate Hollywood to actually have something worthwhile to say.

Heavy Rain impressed me in many ways, but its story wasn't one of them. Just your standard hollow thriller, and not a particularly finely crafted one at that.

You gain a lot more than just "seeing the world through the author's eyes". On a neurological level you are actually creating new pathways in your brain because your mind has to render the images, complex characters, scenes, etc from scratch. Reading, factually, makes you smarter. TV and videogames do not do this because the images are provided for you, your mind is passive in the process. That said videogames are far better for you than TV or movies because you are interacting and like I said in my last post constantly solving spatial problems and using hand eye coordination.

Outside of that there more benefits to reading than I care to write about, the fact we are actually having a discussion about this is mildly depressing. It, for starters, increases vocabulary, complex reasoning and analysis, how to accurately communicate abstract or complex ideas effectively, it improves your ability to communicate with others and discuss composite ideas effectively, enhances your worldview, and perhaps most importantly encourages us to think, something nearly totally devoid in other forms of digitalized media. It is impossible to read a piece of literature and not think, it's why literature is taught heavily in high school and college, even if the subject matter isn't central to your degree focus, the skills acquired by analyzing books are universal.

I just finished a book called Cloud Atlas by David Mitchell. It was a challenging piece of literature with many complex themes arcing throughout, science vs religion, the individual vs the corporation, what "progress" in real terms means, etc. It, like most good books, makes you think. Whether you agree with the author's viewpoint or not is irrelevant, the act of forcing yourself to critically think is paramount to the development of any persons mind.

That is what reading does, and I'm only talking about one small facet and that is reading literature.

@Jargon
To a certain point, right? I mean, most typical jobs don't require experimental prose.

You can also read books that can positively impact your life, like self-help stuff or philosophy or some non-fiction. That's why I tried to stress 'recreational'. When I read a book, I'm looking for the same thing that I'm looking for out of any other kind of media that I enjoy - entertainment. It's often more involving and emotionally gripping, but that might just be a function of the medium, and, to me, it's still entertainment.

@Oldmanwinter
I don't have time to fully respond, but is there anything that precludes other media from the same type of challenging content?

Oldmanwinter said:

You gain a lot more than just "seeing the world through the author's eyes". On a neurological level you are actually creating new pathways in your brain because your mind has to render the images, complex characters, scenes, etc from scratch. Reading, factually, makes you smarter. TV and videogames do not do this because the images are provided for you, your mind is passive in the process.

As I mentioned in the podcast with my Final Fantasy theory, games used to engage my imagination a whole fucking lot (listen to the podcast already!). I guess less so with modern games today, though.

Oldmanwinter said:

the fact we are actually having a discussion about this is mildly depressing.

Could you quit it with these condescending comments already?

Oldmanwinter said:

It, for starters, increases vocabulary, complex reasoning and analysis, how to accurately communicate abstract or complex ideas effectively, it improves your ability to communicate with others and discuss composite ideas effectively, enhances your worldview, and perhaps most importantly encourages us to think, something nearly totally devoid in other forms of digitalized media.

Does reading crap books from poor authors provide the same benefits, though? I can see sticking to Dan Brown stuff actually making you a worse and less effective communicator.

I really don't see how reading is a superior way to develop your critical reasoning skills. I find myself thinking critically all the time, whether I'm poking holes in a movie's plot, talking about politics with someone, discussing video games on this board or watching Lost on TV. As Anand asked, what precludes other media of having the same benefits?

Yeah, analyzing literature is a good mental exercise. So is analyzing anything else.

I really challenge the notion that your mind is necessarily inactive when watching TV and has no choice but be active while reading. I really have to call bull on that.

When I was in second grade my mother took me to a counselor to have me evaluated. I was found to be dyslexic and through some tests she recommended that I problem solve. Some of her suggestions were board games, math, puzzles, and video games. I still remember playing Donkey Kong Jr. in her office. Thats basically how I ended up with a NES when it debuted in the US and why I minored in mathematics in college!

I almost missed this.
Jargon said:

@Oldmanwinter

Self gratification isn''t useless. It's good for you to feel like you're good at something.

What is feeling like you're good at Adventure Island makes you feel like you fail at life?

Abdooooo said:

When I was in second grade my mother took me to a counselor to have me evaluated. I was found to be dyslexic and through some tests she recommended that I problem solve. Some of her suggestions were board games, math, puzzles, and video games. I still remember playing Donkey Kong Jr. in her office. Thats basically how I ended up with a NES when it debuted in the US and why I minored in mathematics in college!

Yes! An on-topic post! Almost forgot why I made this thread!

[ref=id=5377&pagenumber=2#140290]Guillaume said:[/ref][quote][ref=id=5377&pagenumber=2#140276]Oldmanwinter said:[/ref][quote]You gain a lot more than just "seeing the world through the author's eyes". On a neurological level you are actually creating new pathways in your brain because your mind has to render the images, complex characters, scenes, etc from scratch. Reading, factually, makes you smarter. TV and videogames do not do this because the images are provided for you, your mind is passive in the process.[/quote] As I mentioned in the podcast with my Final Fantasy theory, games used to engage my imagination a whole fucking lot (listen to the podcast already!). I guess less so with modern games today, though.

[ref=id=5377&pagenumber=2#140276]Oldmanwinter said:[/ref][quote]the fact we are actually having a discussion about this is mildly depressing.[/quote]Could you quit it with these condescending comments already?

[ref=id=5377&pagenumber=2#140276]Oldmanwinter said:[/ref][quote]It, for starters, increases vocabulary, complex reasoning and analysis, how to accurately communicate abstract or complex ideas effectively, it improves your ability to communicate with others and discuss composite ideas effectively, enhances your worldview, and perhaps most importantly encourages us to think, something nearly totally devoid in other forms of digitalized media.[/quote]Does reading crap books from poor authors provide the same benefits, though? I can see sticking to Dan Brown stuff actually making you a worse and less effective communicator.

I really don't see how reading is a superior way to develop your critical reasoning skills. I find myself thinking critically all the time, whether I'm poking holes in a movie's plot, talking about politics with someone, discussing video games on this board or watching Lost on TV. As Anand asked, what precludes other media of having the same benefits?

Yeah, analyzing literature is a good mental exercise. So is analyzing anything else.

I really challenge the notion that your mind is necessarily inactive when watching TV and has no choice but be active while reading. I really have to call bull on that.[/quote]
1) There isn't a videogame in existence that is going to tax your mind like reading something like Blood Meridian. I'm not saying there aren't games that are challenging and require thought to complete. There are tons of them, most in the adventure game genre however if you are insinuating it's even in the same stratosphere as reading I'm going to politely disagree with you. Show me a legitimate college class taught on the themes on a videogame. Not game design, the characters, themes, etc of a specific game. If you can find one kudos, I've never heard of it though and if it does exist it's in the extreme minority.

2) The comment that started this, and I quote was the following:

"Is reading really useful, though?

That was what I'm responding to and no, it's not a legitimate argument, no teacher on earth would validate the insinuation that reading in not useful. If you want to turn that into "well if someone just reads Dan Brown and the Fox News blog, is that really beneficial for their worldview?" Of course not, however you are taking a broad issue, ie is there benefit to reading?, and marginalizing it to the point where of course you have a point. Respond to what I was responding to instead of nitpicking. Obviously reading is useful. It's not debatable.

Secondly even if you only read Dan Brown, the neurological argument I brought up above still holds. You are doing more for you brain by rendering what Dan Brown is writing about yourself than watching Tom Hanks act it out.

3) When did I ever say that reading was the only way to develop critical reading skills? You should goal tend for Arsenal, it wasn't even insinuated on my behalf. What I did say was that comparatively speaking between gaming and reading there is no contest, one is vastly, vastly superior to the other. You can take than and make it a redux into Dan Brown and the merits of crossword puzzles vs Hemmingway for brain development however that was never the discussion, my point or having anything to do with what was being debated.

4) To your question regarding the merits of analyzing Lost vs analyzing Faulkner, again find me a course taught in any school on earth that is going to teach a course on the finer points of Lost. It was a fun show, it hardly had the depth of a great book but again that's not really the point. You are correct that you can analyze anything from politics to fashion and it is going to have a positive impact on your brain. That though has nothing to do with gaming vs reading which, again, was what I was discussing. In that comparison, reading... even reading Dan Brown, is a better exercise for your mind.

5) If my "theory"... which is compounded by mountains of evidence done by decades of research... that your mind while reading is far more active than while watching television and promotes the things I was talking about in my last post, by all means debunk it. Show me some studies that say watching and analyzing an episode of Lost is on par with reading and analyzing McCarthy. Why is it that every child development course tells you to read to your child, how it is paramount to read to them and for their future growth as people? Why aren't doctors, if what you say is true, telling us to plop little Jonny down in front of the set for 4 hours a day to play videogames as opposed to reading?

And finally here you go, this took all of three seconds to "uncover" using a Google search. There are literally thousands of documents on the matter:

[url=http://www.eschoolnews.com/2011/05/03/reading-boosts-brain-pathways-affects-multiple-disciplines/]Reading and brain pathways.[/url]

Anyhow I'm done with this, sorry if I came off like a dick however answering a question like "is reading useful" and trying to be serious, in all honesty seems idiotic to me. It's an academically accepted truth.

Sorry if it looked like I was nitpicking, but I was really trying to respond to your blanket, categorical statements of "reading does this, video games and movies do NOT", claims you have not provided any evidence for. I do not doubt there are some advantages to reading, but I do not buy the claim that inherently, reading is the better way to develop certain skills over playing video games or watching movies. And I don't think I have to provide evidence to support my doubt, the burden of proof is on you. And frankly, I don't think that evidence exists simply because of the newness of the medium. The studies haven't been made, simply.

When did I ever say YOU ever said reading was the only way to develop critical skills? You should goal for Arsenal (whatever that means), etc.

Hey, I'm done with this too.

edit - Just to prove I can use google too.

@Oldmanwinter
I am an artist and couldn't disagree any more. Nothing feeds my mind more than visuals and sound. Reading words off a page and trying to picture the world for myself does not even compare to watching something like The Incredibles or playing Dead Space. They both feed different aspects of the brain. Get off your high horse. Reading a book about Dead Space and seeing the world they crafted with your own eyes and interacting with it is something else entirely.

And how can you say one is superior? In terms of story (since that's all books can deliver, printed words on a page) of course it's superior. Now don't take this the wrong way but Books are archaic. Yes. I'm not saying it's good or bad but Books are old. Before you go apeshit allow me to make my point that one medium has reached its peak and one has barely gotten started. 200 years from now we'll probably see videogames eating books alive. Gaming has just gotten started so it's quite unfair to compare something that's THOUSANDS of years old to something that's 30 years old. And stories in games didn't get started until the mid 80's (though I'd say the 16 bit era was their true start).

You actually think games are gonna be reviewed and analyzed any time soon at Harvard? They've barely gotten their start. That's a ridiculously unfair comparison to make. And videogames are still considered taboo much like movies, rock and roll, what have you were. Useless argument.
Old men at Harvard are too snobby to acknowledge videogames of ANYTHING. See Ebert.



I'm not gonna say reading isn't useful but saying anything is a complete waste of time is missing the point, including videogames. Videogames aren't a waste of time to me or artistically fueled people. It feeds our brains. That's not useless. Not at all.

I've just been listening to mp3s of Metroid Prime and drawing while recollecting imagery and vague feelings from that game. How is that any less valuable than someone who reads Hemingway and learns a few new words or took the time to vaguely imagine the happenings in the book?


Oh and by the way, storytelling began as a visual medium with images, not with words.


"A picture is worth a thousand words"

@carlosrox

I am not going to debate any specific points because it's not worth arguing and I doubt either of us is going to change our mind.

I will comment on the maturity level of gaming (or interactive media in general) vs literature because its valid. I have no doubt that much learning will be transferred to some sort of interactive medium within our lifetimes, which while not a game it will fall in some gray area.

Just off the top of my head and since you were discussing art, imagine even right now if someone took every piece of art in the Louvre, put it in digital form on an iPad, made a cohesive learning app allowed you to literally reach out and touch every piece, zoom in to see the finest details, read or hear detailed explanations of it, history of the creator, life works, links to other works, impact and analysis on other artists, lasting legacy, techniques used, etc and put it in a format like a virtual tour, broken down by time period, style, etc. If done right the learning, I would guess, would be both faster, more enjoyable and retained far longer than reading about the works of Da Vinci and Van Gogh with some pictures next to them.

So I agree that a visual interactive medium applied correctly can and will definitely play a major role in learning as we move forward. To be fair though that is really not what we were talking about;)

Wii Fit gave me the motivation I needed to lose excess weight and get back into shape. I ended up losing about 35 pounds and I keep it off now, thanks to being more health-conscious. I think the most useful exercise for me was Dance Dance Revolution, it improved my cardio/endurance and helped me sweat off quite a few pounds.

If I had to pick a discipline to compare video games to, I would pick prestidigitation over books, or visual art, or music, etc. Games are to video games as plays are to magic shows.

I mean, we already know what higher category video games belong to: games. And we know what 'art' helps us paint new games: mathematics. Video games' place in the universe shouldn't be all that mysterious...unless their design were pushed by principles like misdirection, surprise, and secrets. Which they very much are.

Probably not so coincidentally, magic seems to have an affinity towards games, like how it uses a deck of cards for many tricks, or how all the biggest shows (that I know of) are usually found at casinos.

It looks like everyone's already done, but my (implied) question was: Is (recreational) reading really (more) useful (than other types of recreational media)? Obviously, you can read things that can enrich your life, and obviously, the ability to read is a valuable skill.

I was challenging the commonly-held conception of "reading is good for you, TV/Movies/games are garbage". I feel like society is a bit unfair on other media. In conclusion, I LIKE BOOKS.

Anand said:

It looks like everyone's already done, but my (implied) question was: Is (recreational) reading really (more) useful (than other types of recreational media)? Obviously, you can read things that can enrich your life, and obviously, the ability to read is a valuable skill.

I was challenging the commonly-held conception of "reading is good for you, TV/Movies/games are garbage". I feel like society is a bit unfair on other media. In conclusion, I LIKE BOOKS.

Well to be fair in your initial comment I assume you were talking about books like whatever Kootz or Grisham or whatever is putting out this month and I was talking about literature. I read stuff like King every now and again however I mostly stick to what falls strictly under the "literature" heading, so we were probably talking two different points to begin with. To me though "recreational reading" is reading literature, not graphic novels or Dean Koontz (though again I occasionally do both).

Reading a gossip magazine or Twilight is not expanding anyone's horizons and I didn't mean to imply that if you go read a bunch of pop culture bullshit you are going to walk away with a Mensa IQ. I'm sure there are plenty of games that tax the mind more than this months GQ.

So really you are right, it does depend on the kind of reading you are doing vs the kind of gaming you are doing. That said as far as what's generally the best for your mind I'd say it goes:

1) Reading
2) Videogames

....

...
3) Movies and TV

I actually argue quite often in real life the merits of gaming vs TV watching. My fiances mother loves her TV shows and views gaming as some sort of mind rotting activity. When you press her on the issue though she really has nothing to substantiate it other than she doesn't like gaming. Gaming, as I have said previously, is a vastly superior form of entertainment to watching TV or movies because you are actively participating in what is going on, spatial awareness, working on hand eye coordination, problem solving, multitasking, etc. In those regards gaming is superior to reading. Just take the thought process that most of us take for granted in a competitive FPS. You are constantly evaluating odds, where you are at in relation to others, utilizing teamwork in a 3D space, using high end hand eye coordination, etc. There have been a bevy of studies done the past decade talking about the benefits of gaming, most of which I agree with so again please don't take it like I was saying gaming = bad, reading = good because I don't believe that for a second. I was more just reacting to your "is reading useful?" comment.

The thing is, I probably don't even disagree with your ranking. But that's just based on my gut reaction, from what I feel from the different media. (I mean, if you go by Brain Age, then reading aloud is the best way to occupy a variety of neurons.) And while other media are technically capable of challenging the consumer in the same way (or in a different, equally intense way), I think books hit the mark a lot more often.

But I find that energy level often dictates my activity. Games take the most energy for me. Then books, then comics, then TV. Finally, falling asleep. Which usually follows turning on the TV.

@Abdooooo
Was it Donkey Kong Jr. or Donkey Kong Jr. Math?

@Abdooooo That's a really great story Abdooooo, thank you for sharing.

@AnandI understood what you meant and that's what I was challenging as well.

anon_mastermind said:

Wii Fit gave me the motivation I needed to lose excess weight and get back into shape. I ended up losing about 35 pounds and I keep it off now, thanks to being more health-conscious. I think the most useful exercise for me was Dance Dance Revolution, it improved my cardio/endurance and helped me sweat off quite a few pounds.

DDR was the most successful in "tricking" me to exercise. I also learned that DDR is good for my butt... and I need to get back into playing it.

Once on the highway, when I tried to swerve a little into the shoulder to get away from someone who looked like they were trying to change into my lane (and into me), my car tried to take a hard left (there's a barrier if you go too far into the shoulder, since I was in the left lane) instead of the little wiggle that usually gets me away from people coming too close to my lane. It took a quite a bit of wobbling around in the shoulder (I was a little worried about my axles after that, after all the roll I was feeling) to regain control. Afterwards, I kind of wondered if all the experience in racing video games is what saved me -- since oversteering is a huge problem for me in racers. So it could've been the coordination instincts from that, since I wasn't panicked at all during that time I spent wobbling around at 60mph. (That other car and the ones in the next lane was very very very far behind me by then, I probably freaked everyone out)

I remember on a rainy day once, seeing a car in the right lane, make a huge u-turn into the left lane and hitting the barrier. I wonder if that's what my car wanted to do (conservation of momentum perhaps?) I'm glad I didn't do that.

And I guess in a general sense, games is a big reason why I liked computers and learned to program back in elementary school (BASIC). I eventually decided that I didn't want to be a pure programmer after a boring internship, but I remember one day suddenly realizing how if-then logic is a huge part of life. WarioWare DIY really emphasizes that, so I wonder if that game is to this generation, what BASIC was to me.

---
Personally, I prefer books and games to tv & movies, I think it's because allows me to proceed at my own pace. And between those two, I prefer gaming because of the interactivity. If you weed out the "junk", I think that reading can be more intellectual (due to analysis and visualization), and gaming is more practical (like reaction times and situational awareness). And that the benefits depend on the usage model.

I wonder why my comments get ignored so often. Are they that bad?

carlosrox said:

I wonder why my comments get ignored so often. Are they that bad?

I responded in detail;)

@Oldmanwinter
Yeah but it was aimed directly at you. I mean everyone else. It's like all the shit I said stirred nothing in anyone, regardless of it being good, bad, right, or wrong.