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GamerGate Explained!!! [locked]
 
It's this thing on the Internet.

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Posted: 09/13/14, 05:42:30  - Locked by 
 on: 01/04/16, 01:39:29
 
 
@Zero

As with Jargon (talking to us about movie casts), you've already told us (yourself) about who you talk to online. Think back to when you were mentioning "black lesbians" the most, it was right around there.. I take what you guys tell me as truth.

What if your "non-conforming" Asians isn't an indicator of "Asians" but rather "offbeat people" or "Hipsters," which I honestly think you are. We've joked (were we joking??) about it for years now. Hipsters don't run with the "normal" crowd (BY DESIGN), but they also aren't indicative of such. They're outliers..on purpose (or "its just who they are.")

Your "skateboarding / cats" example (to Tim) suggests that other people should like games that contain certain factors, like I should LOVE DOA Volleyball stuff because of my affinity for wonderful breasts, or GTA because cars racing each other is awesome. Wrong, twice.
Posted: 01/03/16, 20:11:38
Infinitywave said:


BTW, the Ghostbusters backlash is because it's a shitty knock-off remake after 30 years of the fans waiting for a sequel, and Paul Feig just cast the same group of actresses he always works with. Gimmicky cash grab.

Has Paul Feig worked with Kate McKinnon or Leslie Jones? Or Kristin Wiig more than once?
Posted: 01/03/16, 20:32:57  - Edited by 
 on: 01/03/16, 20:34:35
I feel like I have a lot more to say on this, but I showed the whole thread to Shirley last night and she didn't read everything, just skimmed, but there was a lot of sighing and head shaking and her ultimate conclusion was something like "Why do so many people want to tell Asian women what they should think?" Then we talked about this kind of stuff until 4 in the morning and she pretty much confirmed a lot of what I was already saying so yeah. Why indeed.

I think I'm done here.

Mr_Mustache said:
Your "skateboarding / cats" example (to Tim) suggests that other people should like games that contain certain factors, like I should LOVE DOA Volleyball stuff because of my affinity for wonderful breasts, or GTA because cars racing each other is awesome. Wrong, twice.

Uh, no, it's saying it is a factor. Like, you loving racing cars was obviously a factor in getting interested in PROJECT CARS, and me not caring about racing cars was a factor in not being interested. Neither of us were right or wrong for our interest levels nor are we right or wrong for our enjoyment / lack of enjoyment of say... Undertale or NASCAR games, we just have different wants and needs from our media. People have all kinds of reasons for being interested in something beyond RAW OBJECTIVE QUALITY. Tim just seems to think he can tell people with vastly different life experiences from him that they're interested in / enjoying / criticizing things for the wrong reasons.

Keep in mind, again, this is the person who thinks planetary positions being wrong based on star charts no one but the most diehard fans read (in what might literally become THE most widest / mainstream viewed movie of all-time) (or at least in the top 10) is some serious flaw in a movie that begs for criticism. HA HA HA HA oooooooooooooooook.

Infinitywave said:
That's exactly what you would expect to see and what, I think, pretty much we do see.

Not in Hollywood / America we don't. I wonder if things are better in the UK? I feel like the UK stuff I watch is more diverse in general, but that is a very limited set (mostly comedies) and highly anecdotal. And probably heavily influenced by my viewing Attack the Block so many times.

Also keep in mind that it's about more than just raw numbers. One thing Shirley said last night was something along the lines of "Almost every Asian I see on TV is either a nerdy friend or a docile woman or some other Asian stereotype, almost always as a side character in a white person's story, so yeah I love when I get to see something different." And why shouldn't she? Why indeed.

As for the Ghostbusters thing I specifically saw a LOT of backlash over the all-female cast. That's an issue to many people.
Posted: 01/03/16, 21:20:40  - Edited by 
 on: 01/03/16, 22:20:50
There's some funny material in Master of None about a tv comedy not being able to have two Indian / asian characters in the main cast. That we're at the point where you can have two black characters without it being "a show for black people!", but we're not there yet with asians. It's a little bit meta because of course Aziz Ansari is the main character and Alan Yang is his best friend (and co-writer) but it illustrates how things are problematic but always changing.

Yes film and tv media lags behind real world diversity, but not to some massively discriminatory extent. Maybe my perspective is too British, where diversity -is- I think less of an issue. A black Englishman is just an Englishman. Not an African Englishmen. But the majority of the television and movies I watch (all mainly US) have extremely diverse casts. In fact it's hard to think of a single show I watch that has all white leads. If your definition of "lead" is just a single main character or couple then that's where you might be able to produce data that highlights a lack of diversity, but that would be a very reductive view I think.

As for Ghostbusters 2016, Feig and co. have been far too quick to label the negative reaction to their cash grab as misogynist. Now that's how you deflect an argument.

Same with this deal with casting a black Hermione for the theatrical sequel to the Harry Potter stories.

I think the majority of people are used to the idea that stage productions often cast actors without considering race - even when that conflicts with the original source material or doesn't make sense in terms of the setting, era or the even the family structures the characters are in. But when some fans, who'd already been getting hyped up about this new continuing story, expressed confusiuon or disappointment that the book and movie incarnation of Hermione wasn't going feel like it was the same continuity in the stage play, you have JK Rowling and other people jumping to say, "well, look at you showing your prejudice! Hermione was never expressly written as a white character anywhere in the books". They effectively labeled those fans as racists, when there are perfectly normal reasons why your initial reaction could be something other than glee.

That's part of this whole problem, isn't it? Topic-wise. That unless everyone's first reaction to anything that intersects with race, religion, gender or sexual preference is 100% positive, someone will be there to label you as racist, discriminatory, misogynistic or homophobic. And the more that's unfounded the more it actually damages progress in those areas.

I don't know guys. Gamergate and everything like it, has always seemed to me like anonymous internet trolls VS false outrage kneejerkers, the two extremes of discussion drowing out everything worthwhile in the middle.
Posted: 01/03/16, 22:51:29
@Infinitywave Hmm. In our conversation last night Shirley, referring to her studies in Switzerland, said something like "A lot of Europeans don't like talking about race because they think that is an American problem that doesn't exist in Europe, and because of this racism in Europe is rarely acknowledged and can go unchecked." She didn't do this last night but usually when we talk about this stuff she then gets into how she saw massive amounts of racism while working with the underprivileged / minority populations of Europe, specifically in Switzerland, but in talking to her peers who study in other European nations she says many of them are similar in their views towards talking about race and racism. She also says she faced a fair amount of racism herself in Switzerland, but it's tough to get anyone to admit that it even exists in "progressive" Geneva, let alone do much of anything about it. You might say a black Englishman is just an Englishman, but is that really how all of the black Englishmen feel? Didn't you guys have a bunch of race riots in the 80s?! Obviously not everyone gets along so easily. Minorities often have a VERY different perspective on how accepted into white-dominated societies they are than the "progressive" white societies who claim to accept them do.

This guy, at least, probably didn't feel like just another Englishman.

Anyway, how would we define "massively discriminatory?" I think the numbers I linked above show some pretty big gaps between the reality of American diversity versus the diversity shown on TV and in movies. Yeah it's a bit more rare to see a basically all (main characters) white Seinfeld or Friends-like cast nowadays, but there are still some huge gaps. Non-Hispanic whites make up only 64% of Americans and are a shrinking population, something you would probably never guess looking at our entertainment media. (And DEFINITELY not something you would guess looking at US produced video games, but that's a whole other can of worms.)

With that said I get why it takes time for the entertainment industry to catch up. But I don't think it is inappropriate for people within minority groups, such as Shirley, to be more interested by more diverse media, as certain people around here seem to think it is. This stuff matters to people for real reasons.
Posted: 01/03/16, 23:09:11  - Edited by 
 on: 01/03/16, 23:21:07
@Zero

Two pieces of media, almost exactly the same. Same story, same characters, etc. Except one has a white person cast and the other has a has a black person cast.


And you think it's *not* problematic that one is more appealing than the other, simply based on the skin colour of the cast?


Try reversing the situation. Where someone tells you they find a TV show more appealing if it has white people in it instead of minorities. What would your reaction to that be? Be honest.
Posted: 01/03/16, 23:25:06
@Shadowlink Holy woooooooooosh right over your head did you miss the whole point of why this matters to people like Shirley.

Hint: Whites aren't marginalized minorities.

Hint 2: Skin pigment isn't the issue, but I already said that.

Anyway I'm done with this conversation. Maybe you'll get it someday, probably you won't, honestly I don't care much if you do or not.
Posted: 01/03/16, 23:27:47  - Edited by 
 on: 01/03/16, 23:30:46
@Zero

Being marginalised is not an excuse for engaging in the same behaviour you criticise the 'majority' for. We should all be striving to be better than that.
Posted: 01/03/16, 23:30:25  - Edited by 
 on: 01/03/16, 23:30:39
@Shadowlink It's not the same behavior.

Hint: Whites aren't marginalized minorities.

Hint 2: People who engage better with more diverse media are contributing towards ELIMINATING the white-dominated entertainment issue, not replacing a white-dominated industry with a minority-dominated industry.
Posted: 01/03/16, 23:31:20  - Edited by 
 on: 01/03/16, 23:33:02
@Zero

Why do you keep bringing up the Star Charts? Its pretty shitty of you, honestly. Thats something that Tim cares about very much, and you're being a total ass about it every single post. Why? He lives the stuff, he's OBSESSED with Star Wars more than any of us (to a fault, look at his reliance on the EU). He has a problem with it, let him have a problem with it. Why do you keep doing that? The equivalent would be some movie taking place in Anchorage, and someone pointing saying "thats Russia right there." No, its not. But its a movie, so lets pretend.


And All-Female Ghostbusters cast is total shit. Not because its "all-female," but because THOSE AREN'T THE GHOSTBUSTERS.

You know what else sucks? Anything ever when its like "_________: The New Class." Tales of Symphonia 2, the entire internet was like "I JUST WANT TO PLAY AS LLOYD AGAIN, THIS SUCKS."
Posted: 01/03/16, 23:34:24
Mr_Mustache said:

Why do you keep bringing up the Star Charts? Its pretty shitty of you, honestly. Thats something that Tim cares about very much, and you're being a total ass about it every single post.

You're so very, very close to understanding the issue here. Will you make the final leap?
Posted: 01/03/16, 23:35:56
@Zero

So, your solution to wanting people to stop acting a certain way is to act exactly like you don't want them to act.

'Atta boy, keep that train moving.
Posted: 01/03/16, 23:37:56
@Mr_Mustache It's not the exact same way.

Hint: He actually believes what he is saying. I'm merely using that example to make a point.

Bonus question: Why haven't you called out Tim for being a jerk?
Posted: 01/03/16, 23:39:53
@Zero

I haven't called Tim out for being a jerk because:

a) I don't think he's being a jerk
b) He's not being a jerk
Posted: 01/03/16, 23:43:33
Infinitywave said:

As for Ghostbusters 2016, Feig and co. have been far too quick to label the negative reaction to their cash grab as misogynist. Now that's how you deflect an argument.

Hate it when people do that. I was labeled a misogynist for agreeing with the Mary Sue assessment of Rey from TFA. Curiously, within the same week, I was called a 'fat feminist' for expressing fondness of the cast of the new Ghostbusters.


you have JK Rowling and other people jumping to say, "well, look at you showing your prejudice! Hermione was never expressly written as a white character anywhere in the books". They effectively labeled those fans as racists, when there are perfectly normal reasons why your initial reaction could be something other than glee.

Except she is described as white in the book, as others have pointed out. Not that I give two shits about Hermione and what her race is. But Rowling can't just say something objectively incorrect and then interpret anyone pointing this out to simply be racist.


That's part of this whole problem, isn't it? Topic-wise. That unless everyone's first reaction to anything that intersects with race, religion, gender or sexual preference is 100% positive, someone will be there to label you as racist, discriminatory, misogynistic or homophobic. And the more that's unfounded the more it actually damages progress in those areas.

You're absolutely right. And you've correctly identified the danger.

There is an assumption that whenever there isn't 100% agreement with something, it MUST come from a place of secret racism or misogyny. And they think this because they're already so sure that society is deeply racist and sexist. So when they jump to these conclusions again, they take it as FURTHER evidence that of racism and sexism. Which causes them to interpret more disagreement as just MORE EVIDENCE of racism and sexism. And so on and so on. It snowballs, assumptions based on assumptions. Until you have this really warped perception of the world where you would guess that thousands of people are running around in black face.
Posted: 01/03/16, 23:43:34  - Edited by 
 on: 01/03/16, 23:44:03
@Mr_Mustache

Actually I don't give a damn about star charts. As I explained back then that someone *else* tweeted the star chart, the issue I was concerned with was the fact that you could see something you clearly shouldn't be able to see. You don't need a star chart to understand that, several people with no knowledge of the star chart recognized the issue, because it's quite simple: You cannot see stuff happening in one star system, in *another* star system instantaneously. The star chart is utterly superfluous to that. Of course Zero ignores that and keeps bringing it up because he thinks he's making a snarky clever point, but you're right, it just makes him look like an ass.

Plot points are more important to a story than the ethnicity of the cast. That shouldn't be a controversial viewpoint, unless people place way too much emphasis on ethnicity. And anyone who does that should take a good hard look at their position.

And any excuse that starts with 'Minorities are different' is just compounding the problem.
Posted: 01/03/16, 23:48:53  - Edited by 
 on: 01/03/16, 23:51:26
You mean recognizing a reality. Minority experiences ARE different. You can't just flip the script. Wanting to MOVE TOWARDS EQUALITY with others is not the same as wanting to MAINTAIN SUPERIORITY.

Tim's philosophy at work...


I feel like you'd be the guy at the Civil Rights / Women's Rights protests going BUT WHAT ABOUT THE WHITE PEOPLE!? BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MEN?! I mean, clearly anyone involved in those things were wrong for not giving full equal attention to all people at all times, no?
Posted: 01/04/16, 00:10:57  - Edited by 
 on: 01/04/16, 00:12:43
Shadowlink said:
Plot points are more important to a story than the ethnicity of the cast.

No one gets to decide that. People like things for different reasons.
Posted: 01/04/16, 00:19:48
@Zero, when people say All Houses Matter, what they mean is All Burning Houses Matter. :p Seriously, to stick with the metaphor, everyone is afraid of their own house burning down and want to be sure they'll see fire hoses when they need them, it's an inclusive sentiment even if it's said at the wrong place and the wrong time.

"I feel like you'd be the guy at the Civil Rights / Women's Rights protests going BUT WHAT ABOUT THE WHITE PEOPLE!? BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MEN?! I mean, clearly anyone involved in those things were wrong for not giving full equal attention to all people at all times, no?"

That seems really harsh towards Shadowlink. I get the feeling he's smart enough not to think society is a zero sum game. Sure, some people preach equality in a way that really means "stay away from what I have, no special treatment for you!" because they think an improvement of another group's situation means a deterioration of their own. But I actually think that's a rarer outlook than the 'check your white privilege' brigade allows for. And those times when someone actually does think it's every man for himself the best way to handle it is to talk it out, because the best possible future is everyone realizing they're in this mess together.

We don't get to the Roddenberry utopian future by trading insults. ;)
Posted: 01/04/16, 00:45:59  - Edited by 
 on: 01/04/16, 01:22:29
@Mr_Mustache

The Ghostbusters are old and/or dead. I'd rather see them do something new with new characters than just a reboot where some current actor feebly tries to be as cool as Bill Murray.

Do you get mad every year when you watch a sports team? Those aren't the Bills!!! Where's Jim Kelly?!

Shadowlink said:
You cannot see stuff happening in one star system, in *another* star system instantaneously.

There are no explosions or sounds in space.
Why haven't I heard you railing about the original series for this?
Posted: 01/04/16, 00:51:58
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