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GamerGate Explained!!! [locked]
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09/13/14, 05:42 Locked 01/04/16, 01:39
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@Shadowlink Hyperbole and totally ignoring WHY this matters to my GF, and others. Hint: It has little to do with the pigment of the skin. You still haven't addressed why she should ignore her EXPERIENCES of what it means to participate in white dominated status quo culture that marginalizes people like her and just jump right into non-diverse media that clearly shows it isn't interested in challenging the status quo. I suspect that you might think she doesn't actually experience sexism and racism though? @Mr_Mustache Also hyperbole, who said anything about the ONLY characters someone can feel ANY attachment to? I think Finn is Shirley's favorite character from The Force Awakens, though I'd have to ask her to know for sure, and she definitely is not a black man. There is no "typical Asian American", THAT'S MY POINT. Think of all of the characteristics you think Asian American women have. How many of those are based on ACTUAL, REAL Asian American women that you know versus what the media presents as Asian American women? I know a LOT of Asian American women (many of Shirley's friends, for instance) and there is no one, easily defined feature that they all have. You'd probably think most of them are "exceptions" but that is because you are basing your idea of what Asian women are on a stereotype, and stereotypes rarely reflect reality. No offense Stache but your continual insistence that stereotypes must be true based mostly on your exposure to media cliches is precisely one reason why this stuff matters to people. It leads to actual discrimination based on stereotypes. Also Shirley loves all kinds of guys. White guys just happen to be dominant in the circles she runs in, so it's no surprise she ended up with one. Statistics. Also Shirley loves Street Fighter II. In part because it is one of the few games she can hold her own against me in. But the face of Street Fighter is clearly Ryu. Chun-Li isn't in Smash for a reason. @Jargon Oh god, the reaction to an all black Star Wars would be hilarious. Hell the reaction to an all-female Ghostbusters has been pretty hilarious and that's not a franchise people are as nuts about as Star Wars. But yeah, you're right, it'd never happen. White is the default. And pretending that the white default is some artistic choice is disingenuous. People arguing for more diversity aren't arguing for artists to change their artistic visions as much as they are arguing for white to stop being the default in media. |
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@ZeroIt's about as much hyperbole as your characterizations of my arguments are. And you still haven't told me what her experiences actually are, and why it has anything to do with the media she's consuming. Do that and we can have a concrete discussion. @JargonGeorge Lucas is worth over 5 billion dollars. He can fund his own movie if he cared that much. But if as you said it's about risk and precedent and what movie goers will accept, then where is it that the real problem lies? Either among people to who this stuff matters, or among people who *think* it matters to other people. So how do we go about dealing with that? I personally think that going on and on about how much it matters and making it a huge song and dance every time someone goes against the status quo is self-defeating in that goal. But I also have another question that may explain at least part of the issue, and it relates to these quotes below: Zero said:
But yeah, you're right, it'd never happen. White is the default. And pretending that the white default is some artistic choice is disingenuous. People arguing for more diversity aren't arguing for artists to change their artistic visions as much as they are arguing for white to stop being the default in media.
Also Shirley loves all kinds of guys. White guys just happen to be dominant in the circles she runs in, so it's no surprise she ended up with one. Statistics. What do you guys think the breakdown of character ethnicity is in say...a Bollywood film? Or the Toho films? Or Chinese cinema? |
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@ZeroYou know one non-conforming Asian, and you're assuming that no one else matches either. You also talk to a bunch of people online, who are already on this side of the fence. What do you expect to find by digging in the same sandboxes forever? My videogame playing co-worker? I've never heard her once complain about anything women-wise in games. I do know that she's in love with anime though. Probably just some sort of weird coincidence. Shadowlink said:What do you guys think the breakdown of character ethnicity is in say...a Bollywood film? Or the Toho films? Or Chinese cinema? Quiet you! You're making sennnnse. BTW, Endhiran was awesome. Unfortunately, I watched the entire thing hoping there'd be some white people I could fully relate to, but alas.. |
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@Mr_Mustache No I know plenty of "non-conforming" Asians, as I already stated above. And you have no idea who I talk to online, to be honest. But why would it matter? If there are a lot of people on "this side of the fence" that already shows your idea of one unifying Asian culture as false. Also I reject the idea that Asian have anything to conform to to begin with, that's your idea and you haven't provided any evidence that there is this one way most Asians act anyway. Not that any of this is particularly relevant. @Shadowlink It'd be a long list and she could tell you better than me, but offhand here is one example that comes up a lot... she often gets comments (much like ones Mustache is making RIGHT NOW) (sometimes it is convenient that he provides real world evidence of the things marginalized groups complain about) that show people that are part of the white male culture pigeon-holed her into certain stereotypes based on her gender and / or race, and often when she shows through her actions that their assumptions were not true, she gets "surprise" reactions. Sometimes with the person literally bringing up her gender or race while stating surprise, ie things like "Sorry, I thought Asians..." etc. This shit actually happens very frequently for many people who are part of marginalized groups, and not just in meaningless interactions either. Like, it happens at the academic level as well, which directly influences how she can proceed in her academic career. And this is the open stuff too. There are things she has no proof for directly but feels she has experienced, like professors taking white men more seriously, something that there is evidence of a greater trend for, so I don't see any reason to doubt her there. As for how this relates to her interest in media I've already told you like five times now. If you still don't get why many people in marginalized populations who are discriminated against regularly find it easier to connect to media that shows that the creators are actually interested in representing marginalized demographics as more than cheap cliches or erasing those demographics through omission, I really can't make it much more clear for you. She is constantly viewing media that carelessly does both of the above, either shows Asian women as cliches or erases them, and it turns her off from it. When she sees something that shows signs of doing better, like a project that has a strong and clear push for more diversity and / or better representation of marginalized demographics, she tends to be more interested. And before you guys jump to more conclusions, of course she is not an idiot and she knows that surface diversity does not mean that the actual final product will do a good job of representing anyone. But when it comes to INTEREST LEVELS, yes, it pushes her towards it more, and if it does a good job (she felt like The Force Awakens did a good job, for instance) it makes her feel more connected to the media. Why this is somehow a bad way of thinking is seriously beyond me. I mean fuck, I get more or less interested in games based on how many mechs or skateboards or turtles or zombies they have in them and, for instance, I liked OlliOlli more than most people in large part because I relate to skateboarding games as "skateboarder" is part of my identity. I have a friend who loves some phone game because it has cats in it. Why? He loves cats. Who am I to tell him he is doing liking things wrong? And no one ever tells me my interest levels and connection to media is wrong because of them being related to whatever random shit I happen to be interested in, but you're trying to tell my GF she is wrong over having interest in and being connected to media over something that actually matters to her identity on a real, serious level? Hah. |
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