The link is funny because someone seriously went step by step and made this huge, not a joke but actually serious, complicated article (complete with multiple images) that contains a bunch of totally offbase stretches trying to compare Star Wars to Gamergate to make Gamergate look like heroes and anyone against Gamergate look like villains. Not sure how the above is similar, but I get it. Just consider this an individual who doesn't represent Gamergate and having nothing to do with Gamergate. It's hilarious.
Like, someone decided to seriously write this sentence in something they seriously wrote not as a parody but in actual seriousness...
The politically correct social justice ideology is prevalent in todayís media world; this is the dominant position occupied by the First Order, not the resistance and its members.
That's not a standout either, that's basically how the whole article goes...
Rey was left alone on a desolate planet, didnít ask for anything to happen; she was just waiting for her family to return when the First Order stormtroopers attacked Jakku. #GamerGate supporters wanted to be left alone in their corner and just peacefully play video games when all the SJW goons decided to attack their already misrepresented sub-culture.
Kylo Ren believes his lineage entrusts him to use his powers to impose his vision of justice and punish the ones who dare to oppose his First Order. The game journos believe they are entrusted use their mediatic power to tell their audience what they to think and punish the ones who disagree.
Captain Phasma has been marketed as an important character when she plays a very minor role in the movie. Zoe, Anita and Brianna are marketed as gaming icons when they are insignificant to the overall gaming industry.
When offered a job by Han Solo, Reyís first reaction isnít to complain about getting paid 70c for every credit Chewbacca makes.
It just goes on and on like that. Freaking. Hilarious. Would have to assume this was a joke if I didn't know better by now.
Does it make sense... from a certain point of view?
Speaking of points of view, some view this film as "SJW propaganda". That's another extreme. Wow. That's probably a conversation more suited to the other thread, though I don't really have any interest in turning that thread messier than it already is with arguments over EU and such.
I think it does. I'm not.."one of those people," but I can see it. People just wanted to play their games with BOOBS and VIOLENCE and not bother anybody (school shootings and the like notwithstanding), and then Anita comes in on her white horse of justice, and says "WRONG WRONG WRONG," and then you're like "..oh."
A lot of people just like to "mind their own business" though. Look at those guys with compounds full of wives...or NAMBLA, for instance. Nobody involved thinks they're wrong, and they aren't "bothering anybody." (And I don't even know if NAMBLA is a real thing, or if its a joke. No, seriously..I have no idea.)
@Mr_Mustache I mean I disagree with most of your characterization here but let's put that aside... like literally none of that has to do with The Force Awakens. That's the hilarious part, that someone put real time and effort into trying to turn The Force Awakens into pro-Gamergate propaganda.
With The Force Awakens, Abrams hopes to instill that same sense of wonder in boys and girls alike. "Star Wars was always a boys' thing and a movie that dads take their sons to, and though that's still very much the case, I was really hoping this could be a movie that mothers could take their daughters to as well. I'm looking forward to kids seeing this movie and seeing themselves in it and seeing that they're capable of doing things that they never imagined possible," he said. Later expounding upon his mission as a movie maker, Abrams said, "What I hope more than anything is that they see a movie that tells them that life is full of sort of unlimited possibility that there's a sense of incredibleóto use a George Lucas term, 'hope,'óin the world, and that they feel better when they leave than when they got in there."
I'm using "SJW" lightly here because obviously his approach is a very sane and rational approach, but things like this often get called "forced diversity" by the type of people who use the term SJW seriously.
If you view Anita as THE BIG EVIL you're doing life wrong.
But did you even read it? They didn't put her in THE BIG EVIL section, they put her in the irrelevant section.
Zoe, Anita and Brianna are marketed as gaming icons when they are insignificant to the overall gaming industry.
You're right though that they often do consider her the greatest evil in gaming. They never seem to come to a consistent view on these things, which is part of why their movement suffers. It has very few consistent views.
@Mr_Mustache Yeah women had large roles, but there was a specific decision to make the two main new characters a woman and a black man, and J.J. has made it pretty clear that he did this on purpose to add diversity to the franchise. How anyone could turn this movie into Gamergate propaganda is beyond me but there you go.
I didn't read it, my computer is being a sackhandle today. Maybe I'll read it later.
As for Anita being "big evil," I could toootally see her on a Mussolini-style tapestry, or like those South American presidents. (I actually wanted those for our wedding, one hanging to the left and to the right of the main table with huge awesome pictures of Nikki and I on each of them. DIDN'T HAPPEN.)
And again, though, Lando is like..almost The Big Hero from Return of the Jedi (though you inappropriately attribute all the credit to Wedge). He's a pretty important figure in those movies. And then Samuel L. Jackson, too. I dunno, man. I GET what you're saying, but we shouldn't pretend that "Star Wars: All White, All The Time." (I wonder how Asian people feel all the time when other groups are chosen over them as far as representation goes? Are there any complaints whatsoever?)
Hey I never said Wedge did more than Lando! Lando stepped up bigtime and he had the tougher job there flying a big ass ship like the Millennium Falcon into such a tiny space. I imagine taking an X-Wing in would be a tad bit easier.
I'm not going to speak for Asians but I know one Asian very personally as you know, and she was ecstatic to see all of the diversity in The Force Awakens. I really think it made her enjoy a type of movie she otherwise wouldn't get much out of (she's not really into sci fi / fantasy much.) And I'm learning that it's more complicated than "Asians want to see Asians" because when you're a minority in a white-dominated world you can start to relate to any diversity, period. So for her it wasn't just about the Asians in the movie (who didn't really get the BIG roles) but just about the diversity period.
In the theater, I was just excited to see a badass Asian female pilot. That was a big deal for me. But a few days after watching, it was revealed to me that the pilotís name was Jessika, and I lost my shit. Iíve always, always believed that if I lived in the Star Wars universe, Iíd be an X-wing pilot (when Iím not being a rad grey Jedi but I digress). So I did further research.
I lost my shit again when I found out that sheís someone who totally admired Luke Skywalker and Wedge Antilles just like I did. She seems like someone who grew up on the legends and stories of some pretty great peopleÖ again, just like I did. I havenít gotten a chance to read the junior novel in which she was introduced, The Weapon of a Jedi: A Luke Skywalker Adventure, but Iím pretty sure thereís even more I could identify with.
It hit me right then and there: this is how good it can feel to see someone like yourself represented on screen. Finding someone I finally, truly identified with was such a huge moment for me. Sure, I can find bits and pieces of myself in other characters, and Iíd be lying if I said I didnít look up to a few fictional characters as role models, but this is different, you see.
This might seem very self-inserting and awkward, butÖ I felt like I was watching someone who could be me up there on the screen. I was watching an example of the type of character I could be. And that was magic. I donít know that Iíve ever connected or resonated so much with a characterĖand sheís not even in a majority of the movie! Thatís how powerful that moment was. More than that, seeing and identifying with her felt empowering.
Thatís how meaningful it was to find someone like myself in something I love so dearly. Hell, Iím getting choked up just thinking about it again.
You have to admit that's pretty lame of the toy companies.
PS Another AWESOME EU PLUG- Those books were doing strong female characters long before before it was supposedly the 'cool' thing to do. Mara Jade has been floating around being awesome since the early 90's. Jaina Solo came into her own during the New Jedi Order series in 2001.
.. and I suppose they were really just following on in the tradition that the OT started with Leia herself.
...Does everything really have to be turned into a thing? Cool characters are cool characters.
@Shadowlink I could barely find any stuff from the new movies period at my local Target, which is bizarre. Like, they had a whole Star Wars aisle in the toy section and most of it was stuff from the original trilogy, and I swear there even seemed to be more prequel trilogy stuff than the new movie, which was bizarre. But yeah I can't recall seeing a single Rey... Poe, Finn and Kylo all had some characters and such, but no Rey.
What do you mean "turned into a thing" though? If you mean, do we really have to think about media in terms of culture and representation and have conversations about it well... you don't have to if you don't want to, but I don't see why it would bother you that others do?
If you're wondering why it is important go back and read that thing I just posted about how awesome it felt for the Asian woman to see an Asian woman pilot in The Force Awakens. White dudes get to have that feeling ALL THE TIME (so much that we often take it for granted and maybe don't realize that other people AREN'T always getting it), why shouldn't we work towards letting others have it too?
That's just it. I don't have that feeling "all the time" and it's quite frankly insulting that it's assumed that I do. I've touched on this before when we were discussing this in the context of game characters, and I'm going to say it again. If the only take away from these images:
Is that 'they're all straight white males', then I contend that it's the observer that has the problem. Not all 'white guys' are the same, and nor do I automatically 'identify' with a character simply because of those three broad traits. And to insinuate that either or both of those things are true is actually bordering on the racism that the same observer is likely decrying.
Your article doesn't prove anything unfortunately. All it means is that that specific viewer is putting a lot of emphasis on a character having specific traits. Now she can do that if she wants. But it doesn't mean that any creator of media is obliged in any way to deliver it for her.
A little while back Mustache commented on your chosen skin tone for the character of some game you were playing (I forget which), and I made a comment of you not dissolving into a puddle of angst. That comment was in reference to a similar article Gui posted a while back where someone regaled us with the story of his 7-year old self feeling 'uncomfortable' because he could only choose one black guy in Street Fighter II and he looked a bit 'thuggish' or something. (It's Street FIGHTER.) A game with probably one of the most diverse cast of playable characters for it's time, and this person, at 7 years old, is upset because he couldn't find a character to 'identify' with in some way? Come on.
And you can't use the argument, that it's ok for me, because they had 'lots of white guys' there, because then you should be able to argue he should be fine, because they had a black guy there. If he wants more nuance, I should get it too. And interesting fact: Unless I'm very much mistaken, nowhere in the history of the entire Street Fighter franchise, is there an Australian character. Nevertheless, I managed to choose Chun Li as my main instead (the small Chinese woman...Identify!) and go on to lead a (somewhat) normal life. Whilst apparently this guy was so heavily traumatized, he's writing articles about his horrific experiences 20 years later.
He doesn't need more black characters in Street Fighter. He needs therapy.
And that's the sort of thing that I have a problem with, is that no-one can just create the story or media they want anymore. Everyone feels the need to over-analyze stuff and start arguing over the significance that the inclusion of this character has or the lack of that type of character has. And it's not restricted to one side of the debate, you now have GamerGate types doing the exact same thing to support *their* positions. It's silly.
BACK TO THE EU . When Aftermath released last year, there was this big kerfuffle about there being a number of gay characters in it. I don't know if they were put into satisfy a 'quota' or not. I have no opinion on that either way. There was a very loud group of people on both sides who thought that was the case however with one side bitching about having 'diversity shoved down their throats for PC purposes' (groan) and the other side based in the media praising the inclusion of the characters, singing praises about the 'first gay characters in Star Wars'.
Here's the thing though. They weren't the first. There were a number of gay characters in the old EU, and no-one made a peep. They were just there. There was no media storm. There was no group of online idiots decrying the book. It was just done, without fanfare, without the need to point at it and highlight it. It was normal.
And that's what I think we should be going for. Letting characters and the works they inhabit speak for themselves. Lets have strong female characters in stories simply because the creator wanted to put a cool character in there, not because they felt obliged to because of a 'quota', or so everyone can churn themselves into a frenzy over it like they've seen a unicorn.
And when that happens, you'll have characters everyone can enjoy, without the need to share a common skin colour or gender or whatever. You'll enjoy those characters simply because they're awesome
(For those playing at home, 3 white males, 2 women, and 1 badass alien admiral.)
@Shadowlink Whether or not you have that feeling "all the time" is relatively irrelevant... it is there and open for you, in ways that it is not for others. And one feeling you certainly DON'T have is the feeling of being excluded in that way, so no offense, you really can't speak to it. Neither can I. We should probably listen to the people who can though, when they tell us it is an issue. Instead of saying they need therapy.
PS. You're essentially saying my girlfriend needs therapy, and my most honest response to that would be along the lines of "fuck off with that nonsense", but we'll get to that below.
"And that's the sort of thing that I have a problem with, is that no-one can just create the story or media they want anymore."
No you have it backwards. EVERYONE can do precisely that, whenever they please. I'm doing it right now with my game, and it is awesome. What you mean is, no one can create the story or media they want without others vocalizing criticisms. And they never could do that. Critique is as old as media. Movie critics have existed as long as movies have existed. Do you think The Birth of a Nation released to no critique on its social messages? Hell, Aristotle was, among other things, a literary critic. There is no magical time to return to when you could just produce whatever you felt like with no thought for cultural context and no one ever said anything about it.
Do we really think media creators need a safe space from opinions on their works anyway? Why? Is their skin that thin? If anyone even bothers to review my game when it releases it will probably get torn apart from a variety of angles. And I'll keep making games. Am I superman?!
I have no idea why you are even talking about quotas. That's the biggest strawman ever. Do you think J.J. Abrams did this merely to meet a quota? Do you think anyone who cares about diversity and introduces it into their own works is doing it merely to meet a quota? I mean I'd totally agree that doing it JUST to meet a quota would be stupid, but I also see no evidence that this is a trend in media. Most every interview with anyone I've seen interested in diversity has them giving answers that show they understand deeper reasoning for doing this besides quotas.
Honestly though, I'm much more interested in the perspectives that I get from the people who the lack of inclusion actually affects. When you say "this thing I have never personally experienced shouldn't matter to people who experience it" and people who have experienced it (my GF, for instance) are constantly telling me it DOES matter, why on Earth should I put any weight into your feelings?
Like seriously, step back for a moment and answer that question. Why should I care what you think about what minorities think about diversity in media at all, let alone give it the same weight as the opinions of the minorities I speak to themselves? Give me one good reason.
I was able to share the new Star Wars with the woman I love because someone cared enough to include characters that made her interested in the movie, which was AWESOME. I wasn't even expecting it, but she saw Ridley and Boyega and Issac and such and actually asked me if we could see the movie, which is VERY RARE when it comes to her and sci fi / fantasy. This added to her experience and by extension my own. While it took away from no one's other than the whiny white power dudes who think diversity is some anti-white conspiracy.
Your opinions on how she should feel are completely irrelevant to me, sorry.
Do you think J.J. Abrams did this merely to meet a quota?
Yes absolutely 100% without any doubt in my mind.
I didn't even consider anyone DIDN'T think that was the reason for his/Disney's choices...? This is straight up marketing to achieve the very result you're being a proponent of. Everyone knows that, right? This isn't some secret, yes?
"Like seriously, step back for a moment and answer that question. Why should I care what you think about what minorities think about diversity in media at all, let alone give it the same weight as the opinions of the minorities I speak to themselves? Give me one good reason."
Because all people, no matter who they are, want to be heard and acknowledged and you are the owner/runner of this message board that you perpetuate is all about sharing opinions and not being d-bags and such? Probably that's why anyone here should care about anyone else's opinions. Otherwise, yeah, I mean, no opinion "matters" or whatever. Shadowlink could say the same thing about the opinion of "the Asian you know very personally" as you put it, and how would that make you/her feel? Probably pretty crummy. And that's a pretty good reason, to me, why telling people their opinions are irrelevant is the wrong direction to go in a conversation. Online or off.
But that's just my opinion, and if Shadow's is irrelevant, mine CERTAINLY is.
@J.K. Riki So you think no creators actually care about diversity for any other reasons than quotas? That's an interesting viewpoint, and one that I see no evidence for at all. In fact, to believe this we need to not only often ignore the creator's own words but consider them open liars. Which you know, could be true, but... why assume they're liars?
Anyway, if the argument boils down to "creators need to be able to do what they want" and you think the only thing they ever think about is marketing, they are never doing what they want either way, so it's all moot.
As for the latter, sharing opinions is fine. I'm asking why the opinion of someone who hasn't experienced something should matter as much as the opinion of someone who has. If I want opinions on say... what it is like living in Paris, whose opinions hold more weight, people who have lived there, or people who have not? Why should anyone give both sets equal weight there?
Actually though, in this case it is more like someone saying that anyone who has lived in Paris and says living in Paris is X,Y,Z needs therapy, but this person has never lived in Paris. They just somehow know how people who have lived in Paris should think about living in Paris, and they're condemning the majority of those people. Why on Earth would I care what they think?
Your opinions on things you have no experienced are not automatically as worthwhile as people who have lived experience in the things you're trying to talk about.
@Shadowlink Whether or not you have that feeling "all the time" is relatively irrelevant... it is there and open for you, in ways that it is not for others. And one feeling you certainly DON'T have is the feeling of being excluded in that way, so no offense, you really can't speak to it. Neither can I. We should probably listen to the people who can though, when they tell us it is an issue. Instead of saying they need therapy..
No it isn't. Where's my Australian character? He got tons of American characters. I feel all left out and marginalized and stuff.
I am going to whine and bitch and complain until I am catered to because my entire image and self-worth is apparently tied into whether or not specific categories of characters are in the media I consume. It has nothing to do with what I've achieved as an individual or anything else I have actual control over. It's all about the creative choices of some random on the other side of the planet.
@Shadowlink That was the worst attempt at getting to the root of what we are talking about ever. Did it seriously fly so far over your head?
But what can I say, if you don't want to understand why it is important to people, then don't bother. Have fun attacking the straw man. Straw minority. Whatever. Just stop thinking you get to speak for how everyone else should feel too, because it makes you look silly.