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Dragon Quest XI: Echoes of an Elusive Age Discussion (Nintendo Switch) [game]
 
9.7/10 from one rating

Welcome to the official discussion thread for Dragon Quest XI: Echoes of an Elusive Age on the Switch!

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Posted: 09/26/19, 18:01:37
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Posted: 09/26/19, 18:04:39  - Edited by 
 on: 09/26/19, 20:33:36
There are a lot of RPGs I want to play but I might prioritize this one to be my next one. Something about these games works for me... they're like simple and familiar but still interesting and challenging at times.
Posted: 09/27/19, 06:54:56
Well, it's fantastic so far. Just what I wanted, a classic-style JRPG with modern amenities! Granted, most of my time has been in the demo, but I did manage to play it for a few hours today and I'm having a blast. The 2D mode is rather thorough and it's kind of crazy that it's included; it's basically an entire separate "game," a de-make akin to a lost SNES title.

Everyone please buy this game if you have a passing interest in JRPGs! Not only is it the highest-rated Switch game of the year thus far, but it'll also help support the series in the US! And it deserves support because it's so charming and polished and fun.
Posted: 09/27/19, 19:24:45
@Zero Yup, they're pretty much the comfort food of video games!
Posted: 09/28/19, 00:46:15
Everyone who remotely likes JRPGs should play this. I haven't been able to put it down! The story takes its time but really knows how to land the big moments, and the gameplay and progression are extremely polished. 37 hours in and I love this game.

No one else playing? C'mon, it shouldn't take that long to beat Link's Awakening!
Posted: 10/02/19, 06:24:48  - Edited by 
 on: 10/02/19, 06:25:06
Well if no one else is gonna post, I'm gonna use this thread to keep track of my progress!

Most recently, I've finished the Octogonia section and moved onto Puerto Valor. Octogonia was initially my favorite section of the game up to that point. The DQIV references with the tournament and the music were really fun, but it had enough of a twist to feel different from that section. If anything, it reminded me a lot of Glitzville from Paper Mario: TTYD, especially with the ending moments of the chapter involving the competitors' power being drained. But Rab and Jade's mysterious behavior really added to the intrigue as well, and I greatly enjoyed the whole setting. The American accents were fun, and having a full city be "indoors" like that gave me a real Disney World vibe. In fact, many of the locations in this game give me that vibe.

Like in Gallopolis, I appreciate how there seems to be a recurring theme of redemption and forgiveness; both Prince Faris and Vince are, in a way, antagonists, but they also are sympathetic and you leave them on good terms. I look forward to seeing what else the game does with this idea; I'm starting to get a Jean Valjean/Javert feel from the Luminary's run from the law and the Helidorian guards' relentless pursuit.

Speaking of which, the Dundrasil sequence immediately after was a fantastic introduction to Rab and Jade. The use of DQV's music was on-point, particularly since it is very heavily associated with the loss of a parent. A couple moments got me a bit emotional--Rab's grief and survivor's guilt and Jade holding the Luminary close at the end of the action sequence. The storytelling is capable of some pretty powerful scenes, and it helps that the cutscenes are so well-produced.

So now I'm getting out into the open sea, ready for more adventures. Sounds like Lonalulu is next on my destination list.
Posted: 10/03/19, 23:31:06  - Edited by 
 on: 10/03/19, 23:31:47
The world's opened up a bit more now, but before going exploring, I did the next main chapter of the game: Lonalulu. Wow! This was a sad one, folks. I appreciate that despite these games' inherent silly fun at most moments, they know how to hit home with the emotion as well. This seemed to be based off the original Hans Christian Anderson short story, The Little Mermaid. It was a pretty upsetting scenario all-around, and I'm not sure who I feel worst for. I'm hoping the town can turn around its silly superstitious fears now, and particularly for Kai's mother to learn the truth since she's constantly dumping on the man that saved her life.

So, the thing I didn't like about this story: it seemingly glorifies suicide. Kai is sort of dumbstruck in the moment which is understandable, but I don't like how my party all didn't intervene at all when Michelle was heading back to the ocean (everyone with full knowledge that this would kill her). Serena and Sylvando (and Erik, who's trying to hide it) are noticeably choked up about it in party chat afterwards, but Veronica outright says it wasn't our place to intervene.

What? Like heck it wasn't! If your friend lost her boyfriend and subsequently put a gun to her own head, you wouldn't stop her?

It's a bothersome moment in an otherwise touching and sad tale. I wish they would've just had Michelle do some magical whatever to keep the party from intervening for a moment or something, so at least they don't come across as heartless.
Posted: 10/07/19, 16:29:52
I plan to get the game at some point, but right now isn't a good time for a game this assumingly massive.
Posted: 10/07/19, 21:51:42
From what I played of the demo, I feel the same way about this game as dunkey: its genericness is actually pretty charming, because there's something to be said for having the definitive version of a prototypical RPG. No need to play Dragon Quest III and deal with old graphics when you have DQXI and its beautiful presentation! The characters are wonderful and the enemy design is just hilarious.

But if you've fought an enemy once, you've fought it a million times, and you actually do have to fight them millions have times in order to level up enough to beat the bosses, which is totally arbitrary and not fun. I suppose I can see the appeal of being in the same situation multiple times since it lets you explore different possibilities in the combat system, but at least in the early game, the combat wasn't nearly complex enough for that to be worth doing. I do hear this game's combat is amazing, does it really get that much more interesting as the game goes on, or can you just blast your enemies with high-level fire spells and get the job done?

Dunkey's review (mild spoilers from all over the place?):

Posted: 10/12/19, 20:47:19
@Secret_Tunnel

It's a funny review that's tongue-in-cheek as usual, but I will disagree with Dunkey on one major thing: losing to a boss doesn't mean you have to grind. In most RPGs, you simply have to regroup and adjust your strategy to win. Grinding is a last resort that's meant to be a way out for those that aren't as good at the game.

I played with Stronger Monsters on because I hear the game is largely too easy otherwise, and it's been a great level of difficulty for me. The combat definitely gets more interesting as you get more characters and skills. Each character has their own strengths and weaknesses. For instance, your mage can cast the big party-clearing nuke spells, but it also weighs on her resources and she's the most fragile member of the group by far (mages are always glass cannons in DQ for this reason). You can also pick how you want your characters to grow. For instance, I gave my cleric spears so she'd have a decent attack option when nobody needs a heal or buff, and it comes at the expense of some of her healing power. Other players give her a wand so attacking is pretty much off the table, but you've got a much better defense and heal ability with her.

The grinding thing is exaggerated though, unless he's telling the truth about skipping almost all the enemies when going through the field and dungeons. You're supposed to fight SOME of them, after all! I've pretty much just been fighting when I feel like it and I'm playing with Stronger Monsters haven't once felt the need (after 64 hours) to go build some levels for level-buildings' sake.
Posted: 10/13/19, 03:40:56  - Edited by 
 on: 10/13/19, 03:42:28
TriforceBun said:
The grinding thing is exaggerated though, unless he's telling the truth about skipping almost all the enemies when going through the field and dungeons. You're supposed to fight SOME of them, after all!

This is a good point, and it's something I try to remind myself when playing games with random battles: if the battle system is the point of playing the game, then... what's the problem with getting into a battle!? Now, I do think there might be some weird thing going on where the exploration part of the game feels disjointed from the battle part of the game, and that this creates a kind of internal conflict where you feel like your overarching progression is being halted (Jonathan Blow once brought up how being fed story cutscenes in between battles in FPSes either makes you devalue the shooting or the story, because they keep interrupting each other), but lets hand-wave that away and say we're overthinking it. RPG battles can be pretty fun when they're done right.

I really enjoyed the random battles in Octopath Traveler! Having to uncover the enemies' weaknesses did add this cool dynamic where the first time you encounter them is a fun challenge, and then you get the meta challenge of refining your strategy as you go on.

But I still feel like the main loop of most battles I'm in when I play a JRPG ends up being "warrior uses strongest attack, black mage uses strongest spell, white mage heals entire party, bard (or whatever) uses their MP-restoring ability" for every turn. Again, Octopath Traveler's weakness system put a cool twist on this where, if a boss is weak to staff attacks, then your mage is gonna have to take a break from the spells and use some physical attacks on them, which never happens in other RPGs.

I also remember there was a boss towards the end of Xenoblade Chronicles where the only realistic way to defeat her was to use Riki's weird magic system that I still don't understand. This was a really cool idea! But I also hadn't used Riki at all throughout the entire game up to that point, so I had no idea what I was doing. I have yet to play an RPG that really does a great job of teaching you the subtleties of its more advanced mechanics.

A common rebuttal to this would be that RPGs are about customization and letting players choose their own playstyle, so forcing players to use specific strategies would be against the spirit of character building! But... does every RPG need to be about customization? Because my playstyle is to see a massive skill tree, get cold feet, and put the game down. That's what happened to me with Three Houses! (The battles in that game are so looong too... moving units across the map... takes forever... 😴)

My taste in games is to have a small set of actions that I can apply to a wide variety of situations. That set of actions can expand as time goes on, but it's gotta happen slowly! MGSV did an excellent job of this; you spend the first five minutes of the game lying in a bed moving the camera around. Then you spend five minutes crawling across the floor. Then you spend an hour just walking, and occasionally crawling and running... by the time you're managing platoons of soldiers and deploying air strikes, you're 30 hours in! Breath of the Wild did an awesome job of this too. I didn't even know you could shield surf until about 20 hours in, and now after mastering the controls 200 hours in I feel like the biggest badass in the world, and it's so satisfying. I can't learn all that stuff just by looking at a menu screen! I've been playing Smash for nearly two decades and I only just learned a few months ago that tilt attacks are a thing!

Most importantly though, we've gotta abolish experience points. Heck, this would be necessary in a game that's designed to properly teach you its complexities! I don't want to get more powerful by seeing a number go up; I want to get more powerful by developing a deep understanding of when and how to use my sleep spell. I still think that EXP systems are exploitative because they make players addicted and give a false sense of progression, but fine, if we want to defend them because grinding helps people who don't want to learn the mechanics "win" anyway, that's not the hill I'll choose to die on. But again: does every RPG need to have a leveling system? We can't have just one that puts that effort into teaching the player its combat system and then testing their knowledge? Am I the only person who wants this!?

(Is Paper Mario the closest thing we have!?)
Posted: 10/13/19, 22:35:04
Secret_Tunnel said:
Now, I do think there might be some weird thing going on where the exploration part of the game feels disjointed from the battle part of the game

Not referring to this game specifically because I forget how it works but when RPGs only let you save at save points I often avoid battles and exploration as much as possible until I get to the next save point, and then backtrack to explore. Maybe fight a bit while exploring if I have a clear idea what all I need to do before getting back to the save point, maybe just fight right around the save point so I can rush back when needed. I highly doubt this is what developers intended but it seems to me to be the best way to avoid something I hate so much, which is when I spend a bunch of time exploring and leveling up but the next save point ends up being further away than expected or whatever and I die and lose an hour of work and have to do it all over again. So it feels like the smart way to play. But it's not entirely rewarding either. I mean, who actually likes backtracking?

Actually this isn't just RPGs, it is for any type of game, but with the way battles work in RPGs they tend to be the types you can spend a lot of time in between checkpoints in.

There are some ways around this. Letting the player save anywhere. Or making it so even if they die they keep their progress.

As "brutal" as Dark Souls supposedly is I actually found it very forgiving about death in some ways. You don't lose anything except your raw souls and even those you have a decent chance of getting back. But all items / etc. you get, you keep. So you can explore a bit and not feel super bad if you die.

The Xenoblade series is pretty good about this. Fairly regular checkpoints and you keep all XP / items when you die. Maybe you lose some money or something I forget how it works but the loss is minimal. Makes me much more willing to just explore organically or fight whatever enemies I feel like without worrying too much about whether I'm going to regret it. But still a bit of penalty for death so it doesn't all feel meaningless either.
Posted: 10/14/19, 01:33:32  - Edited by 
 on: 10/14/19, 01:35:49
@Secret_Tunnel

Interesting thoughts. Prepare for me rambling on a variety of JRPG-related subjects!

I think one of the reasons some people dislike random battles is because they don't like being interrupted with what they were doing. When you're exploring, you get invested in where you're going, keeping track of where you've been, heading towards a treasure chest or new door, etc, and being whisked out of that for a battle can admittedly be jarring. I like how DQXI has its battles take place right on the spot where you engaged the enemy; I just wish they could cut out the fade to black and make it more seamless like Chrono Trigger (which admittedly would be quite a feat in 3D).

You know, Octopath may have my favorite RPG battle system of all. It's strategic in all the right ways and also has a bit of wiggle room for customization without being overwhelming.

DQ isn't the place to go for challenging the conventions of JRPGs though. Its whole claim to fame is that it's pretty much the one series you can reliably go to FOR that JRPG gameplay. Final Fantasy tries something different every game and IMO they've lost their way since the PS2 days. I think the games have a good balance of guidance and customization with the characters. The skill tree essentially lets you pick between two weapons for each character (three for a few), and then choose between stronger attacks and abilities, and more latent stat boosts and bonuses.

A lot of devs seem to think RPGs need more action, like an action-RPG is inherently a better game. But as I get older, I'm going the opposite way--more and more I find myself impatient with action-RPGs. I don't like the auto-battling elements, I don't like how sloppy some of them feel, I don't like the feeling of mashing buttons and seeing what sticks. For my money, turn-based is where it's at, and when I want action, I prefer it in non-RPG form, like Mega Man 11, Metal Slug, and to an extent, Zelda.

In fact, I struggle to think of an ARPG that I really like. Xenoblade Chronicles, Tales of Symphonia, and Ys VIII probably come closest. Meanwhile, I could probably list you 20 turn-based JRPGs I enjoy more than those.

@Zero

The Dragon Quest games (and games based off them, like EarthBound) don't return you to the title screen upon death. They bring you to your latest save point, but you keep all your progress, items, exp etc that you had when you died. The penalty is that you drop half your gold on-hand, but you can mitigate this a bit by depositing some of it in a bank. So you don't have to worry THAT much about making it to the next checkpoint since you don't really lose progress so much as some of your coins. I'm not a fan of saving anywhere because I think it takes away a bit too much of the challenge, and DQXI already softens up some of the edge of the series a bit too much already IMO (like HP/MP restore on level-up, checkpoints/healing spots in dungeons, and reviving the Hero after battle).
Posted: 10/14/19, 04:32:17
I am loving it so far, I believe I am at the end of the second chapter. Before I finish the second chapter I am going to complete all of my current quests.
Posted: 10/16/19, 22:15:42
I'm 42 hours in and just finished the first big quest at the beginning of the 2nd half. I love it. Regular battles go by quick enough where it isn't as big a pain to take out enemies in your way and grinding has been largely minimal. Most of mine has been largely voluntary and not because I feel an absolute need to.

Plus it moves it at a good pace. I tired of DQVIII's, to me, extremely slow pace back 15 or so years ago and I am glad this feels a bit more on the quicker side.
Posted: 10/17/19, 07:04:39
I'm 90 hours into this bad boy and there's no end in sight! That's okay with me though--while I was getting burned out on DQVII by this point, DQXI's slow-cookery of goodness has been a joy to savor. From what I can gather from other players, I'm playing this at least twice as slowly as most, as much of that time is spent taking in the sights and talking to NPCs as their dialogue changes frequently based on the events of the world and the area. And sometimes during the night as well!

I haven't posted about my progress since, like, 40 hours ago. Geez. Act 1 spoilers to follow:

L'Academie de Notre Maitre les Medailles!! I love this place! So charming and fun and clever, by far the best Mini-Medal area in the series. Everything about this school is whimsically appealing, from the Headmaster's beady little eyes to the Madeleine-esque schoolchildren learning about how to pluck up Mini-Medals properly, to the walking corpse girl who's concerned about her pungent smell. Lots of fun world-building quests here too, including a ghost girl, a schoolyard bully, and a Lips that has a crush on the Luminary. I wish their sung song could've gotten the full music/vocal treatment, but having extra little ditties like that is the one area this game kinda falters on. Give Sugiyama a few more bucks and have him write us a school anthem already!

I found Phnom Nonh to be a pretty creepy story, actually. Something about paintings that change when you're not looking gives me the willies. The dungeon had a neat gimmick where it gives you the illusion of gradually "shrinking," and the larger monsters help sell that concept too. Didn't struggle with the boss this time, though, possibly because I hit the school earlier and raked in the Mini-Medal rewards.

True to its nature, Sniflheim was a pretty cool sequence. The setting was fun, the town's color palette (and the castle especially) were gorgeous and I liked Queen Frysabel and the twist involving what was keeping the witch at bay. Krystalinda killed me during the first fight, so I had to regroup and forge me some Anti-Freeze Earrings. I dig the Professaurus name and design. Is that a new DQ monster or did it start in X? I did think they were a little too soft on Krystalinda after the initial events, but it does fit in with the game's themes of forgiveness and redemption, so like my feet on the ice, I'll let it slide.

Arboria was a smaller town but still an awfully pretty one, especially with that magnificent statue watching over everything. And the climb to the top of Yggdrasil was a visual feast as well, particularly as the flora became more otherworldly and bioluminescent as the trek progressed. But the real memorable moment came after the Altar, where everything goes to pot and the game decides to pull off a trick I'd only seen once before--and in my all-time favorite RPG, no less! Could DQXI have what it takes to stand up to the mighty Final Fantasy 3 (VI)? Probably not, but the game has already dethroned a lot of my favorite RPGs--by this point, it was already an easy pick for my Game of the Year.

I'll post more later, as now it is time for laundry.
Posted: 10/29/19, 20:24:04
More progress updates! This thread has become my personal blog for DQXI but feel free to jump in anytime, fellas~

So some major stuff went down and I'm treated to what's apparently some new content for DQXI.

Syvando's tale is first, and it has the unenviable job of following such a major plot revelation. His story is somewhat slight given the weight of the events that just happened, but it does a good job in establishing a gloomier world and a motive that's basically the foundation of Sylvando's character. Getting a large group with unique abilities and cycling between them is kind of a fun idea, but the chapter doesn't involve much fighting so it's a bit overly-elaborate. Even so, it's probably better than it wasn't even longer because it already drags just a bit due to all the revisiting of past areas. Cheering up the cow is a fun idea.

Next we move onto Jade. Unlike Sylvando's, this story is locked to essentially a single location, and we get another glimpse into how things have gotten worse since the fall of Yggdrasil. While the Octagonia stuff is enjoyable, this is probably the weaker of the new stories due to the fact that we don't really get any new info or characterization on Jade, outside of learning that she's traveling the world, trying to help people (which is nice, but something that's established right at the beginning of the chapter). Gameplay-wise, it's also weird because the Hare-Raising Suit essentially makes you invincible, which I didn't really get. Why even have combat then? It also ends on a "to be continued" so it feels less like its own revelatory story and more like a semi-unnecessary prelude to her tale later on. I did enjoy seeing the Octagonian combatants again, though, and Boodica was a fun new character.

Erik has a mysterious story where he awakens in an unknown jail with a Healslime that seems a bit too knowledgable about Erik. There are definitely strong nods to DQIV here, from the choice of music to the concept of a physical fighter joining forces with a Healslime to get through a cavern. The final scene is pretty awesome from a choreography standpoint, and there's a bit of an emotional moment as well with the memories. We don't really learn much about Erik, but we do get a clearer sense of how much his friends mean to him. One funny thing is that you see a glimpse of his sister's ponytail during the memory segment, and I assumed the girl who later wanders into the Heliodor foothill church was the same character, and kept waiting for some story element where Erik would meet up with her. Whoops!

By far my favorite of these interludes was Rab's. For starters, it's fascinating being able to see Dundrasil in its prime and interacting with the various characters there. Finally meeting Irwin and Eleanor feels appropriately weighty. And there's even a great gameplay element in being king for a day and making a bunch of diplomatic decisions! It almost reminds me a bit of Taloon's chapter in DQIV, where you get something very different than usual to play with. The real highlight of this sequence comes in its emotional appeal though. I was already getting a lump in my throat seeing Rab get the chance to re-live a day with his late daughter and son-in-law, but then the game goes even further and twists the knife a bit. Instead of the dread of seeing the fall of Dundrasil at this point, we get the sadness of witnessing a future that never came--a Dundrasil that had never gotten destroyed and a family that had never been shattered. Seeing Rab's reactions to this hypothetical scenario involving the Hero as a kid and both his parents still alive and a huge group of people from all across the world celebrating Rab's job as a king...man, I couldn't keep it together. This is one of the most emotional sequences of an RPG that I've seen in a long time, and it really speaks to Rab's character that he had to turn away from this paradise to continue his mission of training and help save the real world.


Next time, we delve deep into Act 2!
Posted: 11/07/19, 18:00:24
I beat the main quest over a week ago. Loved it. Easy contender for my favorite game of the year.
Posted: 11/08/19, 05:01:00
@chrisbg99

Same here! Except I beat the main quest a couple nights ago. 127 hours of modern-day JRPG goodness.

My write-ups are really falling behind though. For the mid-game section, instead of going piece by piece, I'm going to do something a little different and offer up some observations and comparisons between FFIII/VI and DQXIS.

So Final Fantasy 3 and Dragon Quest XI both deploy a similar storytelling device around the half-way point: a calamity hits the world and scatters the party members, and much of the second half of the game revolves around regrouping and finding hope again.

While I'm greatly enjoying DQXI, FF3 is my all-time favorite RPG, and my second-favorite game, so I was pretty excited when I reached this point in DQXI. It's almost like a modernized take on that situation from FF3. I thought it might be fun to compare what both games did from a storytelling perspective and see the strengths of each.

WHAT BOTH DID RIGHT:

-The mid-game Apocalypse is really a neat trick all-around. Not only does it succeed in shifting the atmosphere, but it rekindles interest by having the player reach their lowest point for a while and stripping them of their power. It's also clever how both games will set up stories and arcs in the first half so that they can resolve them in the second.

-Re-collecting your scattered party members is a much stronger motivation than collecting a bunch of faceless MacGuffins. You wonder what they've been doing in the meantime, where they've been living, and in some cases, how the events have changed them (Erik, Jade, Veronica).

-Both games have a good balance of darkness with enough hope and charm to not feel depressing. Both involve real character deaths but also a fair amount of levity when necessary. The tone feels appropriately weighty but also not overtly bleak.

WHERE FF3 EXCELS:

-FF3 didn't just cast a dark shadow over the world, but reshaped the land mass entirely, making for a more interesting, shifted-around planet. While hope is still hard to come by in Erdrea, you don't get the impression that the world has changed THAT much. By and large, the Tree falling was more of a one-time disaster that killed some people, but the threat to the world is a bit more nebulous than Kefka frying dissenters with the Light of Judgment.
(later spoiler) When you get Rab back, there's a brief mention of souls not being able to move out of limbo, and I wish was made more clear as a known threat to humanity, as that's an extremely dire scenario that's just sort of glazed over.

-The music better reflects the state of the world in FF3. DQXI does have a new town theme and a bleak overworld theme during Heliodor, but it never really gets a cool new overworld song to inspire hope in your party like FF3's Searching for Friends. And I think the "bustling city" theme of DQXI really shouldn't play at all in Act 2. Some sort of middle ground song (maybe even the old village theme?) would've worked better, as it's crazy to hear that happy city theme in, say, Gondolia when there's a giant red orb in a sky full of dark purple clouds.

WHERE DQXI EXCELS:

-I rather like the interludes that were added in the interim. FF3's characters largely feel like they haven't done much since the cataclysm (with a few exceptions), while DQXI's guys have been on adventures in their own rights:
Hendrik is atoning for his mistakes and taking care of people. Jade is now working alone to assist the vulnerable. Rab is training his mind and body for the eventual showdown. Sylvando struggles with hopelessness and discovers something about himself. Serena learns to be more self-reliant. And all of this stuff happens BEFORE you meet them!

-Having Hendrik join the Luminary as the first party member is a really clever move. It forces the two characters to bond and it gives you time to trust him as an ally. As a result, it doesn't feel like he's missed out on development since you get him so late in the game.

These posts are looking like confidential government documents now, but oh well. Better safe than sorry. I managed to have a bunch of this game's plot points and twists spoiled for me... :(
Posted: 11/12/19, 05:32:09
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