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The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening Discussion (Nintendo Switch) [game]
 
The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening on the Switch
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09/22/19, 12:33  
 
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@TriforceBun

I do have to keep looking stuff up, though, ha ha. Which I imagine is a direct result of the 90's game design. Back then they made you think! I am soft and used to games holding my hand through the whole process.
08/01/20, 15:38   
I beat the game tonight. By the end I was looking a lot of stuff up, because I was just ready to be finished with it. But overall a really fun game! The ending seemed eh, but the characters and weird world were great while it lasted.
08/10/20, 05:53   
@J.K. Riki

Whoa, LA's ending might be the most iconic moment of the game for me. I find it extremely emotional!
08/10/20, 07:15   
I could see this game's ending being less impressive in the remake despite being objectively more technically advanced.

Back in the 90s, the emotional weight of the ending was amplified by the fact that I couldn't believe the Game Boy could pull off something so cinematic.

We were also more used to minimalist storytelling and filling in the details that were left out due to low resolution/limited memory/no voice acting/etc.
08/10/20, 18:23   
@TriforceBun

Really? I found it forced. Link is warned time and again that he will destroy everything and everyone if he continues as he is going. Rather than really dig into this idea, at the last moment (really the last possible moment) a band-aid for this horror is put in by saying "Oh, the whole world was controlled by nightmares anyway, so annihilation is the right choice. You defeated evil, apparently! And the others will live on in your memory or something, no worries." That was so lame. It would have been more honest to either introduce the nightmare aspect earlier, or to make Link face the really hard choice of potentially killing innocent sentient beings (if they were, and if not it carries no emotional weight and is just a trick) in order to leave/escape. The game felt like a modern Pixar movie to me. Highly emotional, until you think about it a little deeper and then suddenly you realize you were being played like a fiddle.

But it was delightful otherwise, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it wasn't great, it certainly was. It is just that the ending is pretty modern-Pixar. Interestingly I think it could be fixed if Nintendo reintroduced the characters/world in a new Zelda game. Link gets back there via other means, so it shows it is some sort of pocket dimension rather than just a fish's delusion. Did they ever revisit this part of the lore? I'd be all for that. I cared more about this bunch than most characters I've encountered in Zelda games, ha ha. They felt more authentic to me. (Which is not to say I don't love Paya forever, but she was pretty cookie-cutter in spite of my emotional reaction to her!)
08/10/20, 19:22   
@J.K. Riki

How curious--I'd think bringing back the cast in a later game would really undermine the ending. Usually when the "it was all a dreeeam" thing is invoked in shows and movies and stuff, it's just an easy, cheap solution for having the storyline go completely off the rails. In LA though, they use it for the opposite effect, to add dramatic weight. It works for me because it's so easy to fall in love with the characters and world of LA (simple as they are). To put it another way, if LttP or something ended the same way, it'd just get an indifferent shrug from me because I wasn't very attached to that cast.

LA gradually is meant to invoke unease in the player starting with the Level 5 boss's final words, following through to the Southern Shrine revelation. To me, a cop out would instead be in planting these doubts in Link's mind and then not following through. The fact that the island and Wind Fish are being terrorized by the Nightmares doesn't remove the melancholy of everything disappearing, it just makes Link into a slightly more heroic figure rather than destroying it all simply to wake himself up. It helps that the dream concept permeates throughout the game and isn't just thrown in at the end: it's called Link's Awakening. You start the game by awakening in Tarin's house. There's a Dream Shrine where you basically Inception your way to the Ocarina. The goal is to collect the instruments to wake the Wind Fish, and so on.

It's interesting to me because I have had dreams in the past that feel like whole worlds, complete with memorable new people and all, and it's disappointing and somewhat melancholy to wake from these and realize it was all an illusion. That's one of the reasons the ending of LA resonates with me; Link isn't actually causing damage to real people because they never really existed in the first place, but it's still sad to see them go. There's also the question of turning away from something appealing because it isn't real. (Incidentally, Dragon Quest XI touches upon this concept in one brief sequence and it's one of my favorite moments of the game)

Of course, most of this is in subtext; part of the game's charm is in how it doesn't elaborate on this stuff and the nature of the Wind Fish more than necessary, which sparks my imagination more (especially on the Game Boy). I just think it's a really resonant story that's told in an elegant, simple way, and the ending is the thing that brings it all together.
08/11/20, 01:01   
I mean, for me the whole point is that it IS a dream. Was it really Link's? Or was it the Wind Fish's? I think that's all you really need to know.

They do pose the question of what will happen if you wake the Wind Fish, and that's kind of the point to me. You really don't know what's going on until you wake the Wind Fish at the end. Since it's your only way out, you have to risk the destruction of everyone on the island.

I think this concept is already melancholy on its own. Adding any more substance to the characters and their fate? I'm not sure it would really fit in with the game's tone. I always felt there was emotional weight behind saying goodbye to them.

The whole game was a dream. There's really nothing more to it than that. It kind of reminds me of the Justice League episode where Superman gets trapped by the Black Mercy and has to live his life with a wife and son. And when he has to say goodbye he really has to lose them. Needless to say, he does not take it well. This is obviously different than Link's Awakening, but it shares certain themes. I don't think there would be much emotional weight if Link found a way to save these people. I think it's much sadder that we have to say goodbye to them, knowing that their destruction is the only way to move on with our (Link's) lives.

Maybe they could've played with the idea of a dream feeling SO real, and how disappointed you are when you wake up, but I don't know if that would ruin it. I think all you need is for Link to look up at the Wind Fish and smile. I always got the idea that in Link's mind, Koholint is always kind of in his heart. He's also probably super relieved that he didn't just kill a bunch of people.

I think it would be too much of a cop out if these characters reappeared. It wouldn't give much consequence to the game's ending.

I hate talking about this because it also plays into my dream game I've always wanted to make. More and more, I see that its ideas were either done before, or are continue to be made by other forms of media.


I'd also echo Guillaume's sentiment that the original game was more emotional because there's just something about the original game that feels more dreamlike. Maybe that's the nostalgia goggles, but the original game always had me feeling like I was saying goodbye to loved ones or something. It echoed a similar feel of "I just spent time with all these people, and now they're going away forever because I need to wake up from this dream. Maybe mechanically there are things I'm not seeing that prevent this idea from being properly executed, but that's the vibe I always got. Otherwise, I feel like this game would basically have the same ending as Majora's Mask.
08/11/20, 04:47   
Edited: 08/11/20, 04:50
By the way I still think I maintain that the black and white original on the original Gameboy was the best. Thematically, it always worked for me that the game was monochrome. I actually think the game kind of lost something in its Gameboy Color incarnation.

Yeah, you had to switch the items around all the time, but it was just one of those games that punches WAY above its own weight. I think it was as impressive as seeing Xenoblade running on years later. There were just some games that you couldn't believe were running on a certain platform. RE4 was the same way.

Edit: I'd also maintain that Link's Awakening was never about "beating evil." It was about waking up. The only way to free these people of living under the rule of these nightmares is to wake up. I think there's a point where the nightmares are like "Don't you understand what you're doing??" Perhaps they should've pushed this idea further - that waking the Wind Fish would destroy the entire world. I think they communicated it pretty well. Otherwise, I always thought that beating this game had a melancholy about it. You saved the day...but there wasn't really a day that needed saving. There's no more fitting if an ending IMO than fading to white and just saying goodbye.

I am pretty curious as to whose dream Link was even in. I think it's pretty logical to assume that it was Link's dream all along. The game is chock full of elements from almost every Zelda game, before and since. It makes sense that a legendary reincarnated hero would have a dream that takes aspects from all his different lives.
08/11/20, 05:11   
Edited: 08/11/20, 05:38
I don't have much to add, except that I too like the ending (of the original, I haven't played the remake yet), and that I smiled when @PogueSquadron brought up the excellent JLU episode "For the Man Who Has Everything." I mean, any adaptation of Alan Moore's work that he actually agrees to attach his name to can be nothing short of miraculous.
08/11/20, 05:38   
Regarding the ending, and I think I still maintain this for the whole game,I like the original better. It probably IS nostalgia glasses, but the original game is so abstracted. I know that they picked an abstract style in the new version, but the combination of:

- simple graphics
- little color
- abbreviated/stilted dialog
- little storytelling

All kind of made for this very dreamlike experience. I've often maintained that the GBC remaster was just...not the same. Even as a kid, when they shifted to color, I remember thinking "Oh, that's not how I would've colored that." Of course, the limitations of the GBC shine through as well,which, in a way, somehow makes the game feel more dated. There's something very timeless about the old monochrome GB style. Of course, I again admit that this is all probably just nostalgia. Maybe kind of similar to the nostalgia one might have for old, black and white movies.

On a side note, I always think it would've been cool to have the whole game in black and white, and then have it switch to color only in the intro and ending sequences. Or just have the color come back, Pleasantville style, as Link continues to perform actions that disturb the world.


Though ACTUALLY - I'm very tempted to play this game with the color turned down on my TV and see how it is.
08/11/20, 16:10   
I can see it both ways. I do think the game has a lot to say about nostalgia, growing up, and the flow of time, but the ending is quite abrupt.

Both this game and OoT are so subtle with their dialogue that you'd be tempted to say they don't have a lot going on, but I think there's a lot beneath the surface. Like, Tim Rogers brings up that kid in the village who tells you "Don't ask me, I'm just a kid!" Which seems like a goofy throwaway Nintendo line, right? But it also works as a metatextual joke: yeah, he's just a kid, but he's also just a kid. He's a mindless NPC who's meant to serve one purpose in this unchanging game world. It ain't quite MGS2, but if you look at people's reactions to this game on the internet (and in this thread!), the minimalist storytelling seems to have worked.

The game actually ties into an interesting sci-fi thought experiment I've seen lately with all the discussion of mind uploading and simulations: is there moral value in repeating the exact same experience over and over? You play a simulation of yourself eating a delicious pizza, wipe your memory, and play the simulation again. You could even say you do this repeatedly until the end of time; eating that pizza is your entire existence. Does each instance of you eating that pizza add "goodness" to the universe? But if each instance is indiscernible from all the others, then what's the difference between doing it once and doing it a billion times? There's no subjective difference for the person eating the pizza.

Koholint is the same way. Everyone there is chill and nothing bad happens until Link shows up. He could stop his quest and be happy hanging out there forever. But would that actually be the right thing to do? These villagers don't even have a concept of "when." Nothing ever changes on the island; they aren't even real people, they're just NPCs in a video game. By progressing through your quest, you're causing bad things to happen, but that's where the fun is!

And then you have Marin, who almost seems to be sentient, but...

(Maybe Link's Awakening is up there with MGS2!)
08/11/20, 17:54   
I guess from my perspective, even up until the moment you beat the game, there's still a mystery about the island and its inhabitants. I feel like that's the whole crux of the whole thing. Link doesn't know if these people are going to be destroyed. All he knows is that the only way to leave the island is to wake up.

And really, what is more dreamlike than that? In a dream, you have an incredible ability to accept the things around you as normal. Every little mission Link gets in this game, every interaction with the owl, every defeated Nightmare, is another step towards him waking up. It would maybe be interesting if they had earthquakes or screen shakes towards the end of the game to kind of give you the idea that Link is waking up. But anyway, my main thing is that Link is given missions, and he follows them without question. I mean, he usually does that because he doesn't speak, but this game actually kind of gives it context. Link is just meandering through this quest because he has to.

If they did something where Link had to preseve Koholint in some kind of pocket universe or something, or they explain that this dream world IS another real world, with real people...I don't think the story would have the same weight to it. This story is already like an episode of Star Trek, but that outcome would kind of be a DIFFERENT episode of Star Trek. You know, the one where they find out that the beings on Koholint are sentient and worth saving.

But in my eyes, there's really no more fitting an ending than that world vanishing, Link "awakening" (as the title would suggest), looking up at the sky, and realizing that it was all just a dream. He smiles and looks up at the birds, and remembers Marin wishing she could fly. And that's good enough for him, and he can move on with his life.

Now what could be crazy would be a sequel to LA where Link is BACK in Koholint. This isn't just a dream - it's a recurring dream. And he keeps coming back to this same dream over, and over, and over again, until he has to figure out how to break the cycle. Of course, for a GAME, this brings in potential problems. But I think the idea could be there. Maybe Link has another dream with Marin trying to reach out to him. And then you discover that all these dreams are trying to point Link in a certain direction so that he can finally save people on an island or something like that. I think there's a way to expand on things, but I'm not sure it was worth expanding on in the original game.

Still, I think it's a story best left simple, where these people were just never real, and the player is left to their own thoughts in regards to how they feel about "waking up" - sacrificing these people just so we can go on with our own lives.
08/11/20, 20:13   
PogueSquadron said:
Since it's your only way out, you have to risk the destruction of everyone on the island.

Yeah, to me that is the opposite of what a hero does.
08/11/20, 20:52   
Has everyone here beaten the game so we can lay off the black bars? Eh, I'll keep posting them to be on the safe side.

@J.K. Riki

That's true, but I think this is addressed in-game in a couple ways--an intentional growing feeling of trepidation as you near the end of your quest, the fact that the Nightmares are still causing trouble, and the idea that it's all a dream anyway so there's no real moral weight to Koholint disappearing. I don't think I'd want a Zelda game that was so morally gray as to make Link out to be a destroyer of worlds, but I do think when they dip their toes into ethical dilemmas it can lead to some memorable storytelling (I'd say this applies to The Wind Waker near the end as well).

It's a neat game. I wish Nintendo would play around with storytelling a little more often because they're quite good at it. LA, TWW and Skyward Sword all have strong plots, Majora's Mask gets a lot of mileage out of characterization, and several of their non-Zelda games like Kid Icarus Uprising, EarthBound, Mother 3, and some of the Fire Emblem games can be very compelling as well.
08/11/20, 21:18   
Edited: 08/11/20, 21:19
@TriforceBun

Ironically it may be the retirement of Miyamoto that will launch Nintendo into a new Storytelling Age. We won't get the same level of creative gameplay, most likely (who is going to dream up Pikmin but Mr. M?) but the silver lining may be deeper and richer stories. Maybe. We'll see eventually I guess!
08/11/20, 21:49   
You could also just make the pretty easy jump of logic - Link makes the connection before we do. He knows that by the end of the adventure, none of this really matters. Is it selfish? Perhaps. But then again, if Link knows these people aren't real, does it matter if he chooses to end the dream?

And really, you could also make the argument that everyone in the game is completely designed around Link achieving his goal of waking up, while every enemy is designed around keeping Link asleep. All of the NPCs give Link tasks and missions and puzzles that facilitate his journey to wake the Wind Fish. Marin even gives Link the exact tool that Link needs to prevent himself from staying asleep forever - the Ballad of the Wind Fish.

I think it's perfectly plausible to make the leap that Link has kind of subconsciously created his own adventure in which to wake up, and that all of the people in the world are machinations of his own brain, further pushing him towards awakening. Link very likely realizes this, if not at the Face Shrine, then at some point towards the end of the game. Perhaps it's the fault of the remake for not expanding on this. They could've given the vibe of " You know what Nightmares? I'm calling your bluff. You can't keep me as a prisoner here. This world is nothing more than a creation of my own subconscious, and I have the ability to say ' enough is enough.' "

It's the nature of a dream to accept really weird scenarios. I feel like it's pretty fitting that Link doesn't seemingly question the fate of Koholint. I.e. I don't know if it's something you're supposed to think about too hard.


I don't think there's anything wrong with an alternate ending where they make the game even more morally gray than it already is, but I still loved how it ended. I suppose another way to do it would've been that Link does his damnedest to ensure that people will survive after the Wind Fish wakes, but then the people tell him not to worry about it, and that it's okay for him to wake up now. That kind of storytelling might've been a little too hard to figure it in 1993. This is like the first 'meta' game I can even remember, and this idea has been done a lot since then. it certainly makes me think that my own dream game isn't as creative as I've always thought it was.
08/13/20, 02:36   
Edited: 08/13/20, 02:47
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