@Zero
Whoa. That's Sonic 101. Like, wow!

Going back a bit, I have a feeling that the part where you thought you needed Tails's hover was just a part you could have spin-dashed though the wall. The hover is definitely not needed for any of the levels.

@ludist210 See this is what I mean. "Forget"? I have no idea what that is and the game never told me it existed.

@ploot Spin dash... through a wall? What the heck are you guys even talking about? How would anyone know that's a thing?!

I get that this game is trying to be "old school" but there is a reason most modern games teach you how to play them.

Zero said:

@ludist210 See this is what I mean. "Forget"? I have no idea what that is and the game never told me it existed.

It's funny you say that, my friend never knew it existed either as we were playing the game. I only knew about it because it was in the first trailer. That said, it's completely optional to use, and I'm not sure I'd even use it that much unless I was going for a speedrun.

As for spinning through walls, that's been a Sonic thing forever. And the walls you can spin through have a different look to them (like the false walls in New Super Mario, but more obvious). And you only really have two actions in the game: jumping and rolling. With only those two options to try out, might as well throw them at everything.

I'm new to Sonic and never even had any of the issues discussed here

nate38 said:

As for spinning through walls, that's been a Sonic thing forever.

It's poor game design to assume someone already knows something because it was in previous games, especially if those previous games came out like 25 years ago or whatever.

nate38 said:

And the walls you can spin through have a different look to them (like the false walls in New Super Mario, but more obvious).

Do they?! I like Sonic graphics in theory, but they're so busy that it's hard to tell what the heck is going on sometimes.

Zero said:

nate38 said:

As for spinning through walls, that's been a Sonic thing forever.

It's poor game design to assume someone already knows something because it was in previous games, especially if those previous games came out like 25 years ago or whatever.

I mean, Sonic Mania is aimed almost entirely at people who played those games. I don't think it's too much to expect the barest level of Sonic literacy for the player to access one of several paths through the first Zone of the game. Might as well rail on New Super Mario Bros. for never explicitly teaching the player they can press down to go down those green tubes (and only certain tubes, what's up with that?)

Sure, it doesn't apply all the best practices found in Game Design 101, but at some point the player can piece things together for themselves. A path ends suddenly at a wall, which looks slightly off. You can see a bit of the path continuing from the other side of the wall. Your character is essentially a high-speed buzzsaw. Maybe try some things from your very limited repertoire of options.

@nate38 Well, but there are tons of real dead ends, also you can basically fly, so going "hmm maybe I'm supposed to go through this wall" wasn't on my mind.

As for NSMB, the first pipe you have to go through (world 1-2) is A. facing at you and if you keep walking the way you were you will go right into it B. the only thing at the end of your path in a game that doesn't have multiple paths (there is a secret path, which the player in the video takes, but it brings them to another pipe facing towards you.) Not quite the same as "spin jump through secret wall." In fact Nintendo tends to be smart about these things, they probably did it this way to "teach" players they could go in pipes, and then when they see pipes in other directions they might give it a shot.

Of course in actual old school games developers never told you jack, but even then Nintendo tried to be smart about that kind of thing. In the original Super Mario Bros. you see Mario going into a pipe in the "cutscene" at the end of 1-1, which at least suggests the possibility. Hmm. Come to think of it you don't really NEED to go into many pipes in the original game, it's usually optional, and the ones you do have to go in tend to be standing out like a sore thumb at the end of the only path.

I "get" Sonic a lot more thanks to Mania and some forum posts I've read explaining the series' design but I still kinda agree with Zero that the gameplay can feel pretty cheap and possibly even counter intuitive (paraphrasing Zero at least).

Enemies can be especially cryptic. There's this dragonfly (?) type enemy in the first stage that you can seemingly only hit from a specific angle even though there's nothing to indicate he isn't as harmless as some of the others. Some enemies require specific spots, some don't, and it's definitely not always clear. There's some enemies I just can't figure out. There was one I honestly had no idea how to pass without getting hit.

@Zero Where are all these dead ends? There are some paths that just lead to a 1up or a special stage or something, but the games funnel you towards the goal pretty nicely. Most of the time when I see people getting "lost," they've just managed to start going back the way they came and didn't realize it.

Are you playing as Tails? Or did you discover that you can get Tails to carry you as Sonic? I didn't even know about the latter until I read that you could do that in someone's Youtube comment. But yeah the game never requires flight, and I don't think there are any paths exclusively accessible with flight. It's more of a bonus ability than a baked-in mechanic.

@carlosrox You think everything is cheap Not sure what enemy you're referring to in Green Hill Zone. It's not these guys, is it?

You can hit them from any angle. If they're doing damage to you, it's because you're colliding with their shots.

What's the other enemy you can't seem to pass?

I didn't even know you could play with Tails? I just meant when playing as Sonic you can get Tails to pick you up and fly around for a bit. That's how I got past that area I thought I was stuck in but apparently was supposed to spin jump through a wall, probably. I just flew up to a higher path.

Even though it might be coming off like I hate it, I actually like the game so far. I'm going pretty slow... I think I finished 4 areas? but it's fun. I'd score what I played somewhere in the 8s. I just think it's weird too, because of all the aforementioned stuff. And this stuff is what keeps it from moving up to the next tier for me.

I finally broke down and went ahead and got this game. And it was...

Great. It was great. This is the game that made me see the appeal of 2D Sonic. Something that I think a lot of people don't fully understand is that 2D Sonic isn't about going fast- it's about the use and management of momentum. The game rewards careful play and management with stretches of speedy spectacle, but you're not necessarily meant to be going at top speed as often as you can. Sonic's high maximum speed is a tool, in that it gives you the freedom to utilize the multiple speeds between 0% and 100%. Carefully managing your speed- knowing when to go fast and when not to- is how you play well and access the rewards hidden on trickier to access routes. I've played about half of Sonic 1, all of Sonic 2, a bit of Sonic CD, all of Sonic 3, and about half of Sonic and Knuckles, but I feel that Sonic Mania is best at both teaching this to the player and designing its levels around this philosophy. More than any other 2D Sonic I've played, this game restrains itself from putting enemies in the path of speedy parts or punishing the player unfairly. Certainly, there are moments of trial and error (they may be unavoidable with this type of game), but they feel less punishing, less frequent, and less sudden than any other 2D Sonic. With Mania, I felt better attuned to the flow of the level design- when was the right time to go faster or slower. The brand new levels are particularly well designed and suit this philosophy, but even returning stages are better than ever, in this regard. Some levels still have issues with too many slow sections or seemingly unfair punishments, but pound for pound this is the best 2D Sonic.

@Hero_Of_Hyrule





And lookie who else has contracted a pretty serious case of Sonic Mania:

基本アクション「転がる」。坂道を利用すれば、コロコロと速く移動できますし…Joy-Conを振ってさらに加速！なんてこともできちゃいます。 pic.twitter.com/sLCgTCWUNy

— スーパーマリオ オデッセイ (@mario_odysseyJP) August 28, 2017

Game's finally out on Steam! Time to get my mitts on this one for reals.

I'm happy I got this game.

The other 2d Sonic games always felt too difficult for me. And some of the stages were just too punishing (any water stage). Or too long (3 acts to a zone?).

This feels just right. Only two stages to a zone, neat bosses at the end of every stage, and not super punishing level design (besides the cheap getting crushed mechanics that still exist with those rotating blocks...).

Lots of fun and neat hidden areas and multiple paths. Oh, not a lot of water, either!!

Man, I can't get enough of this game. I beat it as Sonic and Tails, went back for the emeralds, hunted down most of the trophies, did a co-op playthrough with my brother, and have almost finished up a run a Knuckles. There are very few games that I can say that I've been so enthusiastic about that I wanted to beat them 3 times in a row. Sonic Mania is one of them.

@TheOldManFromZelda

I agree!

I'm 3 hours into my first solo playthrough of the game: I've got all the Chaos Emeralds, Gold Medallions in almost half of the Blue Spheres special stages, got killed by the 10 minute time limit four times, and have only just made it out of Studiopolis.

Basically, I play Sonic games like Carlos plays Breath of the Wild.


I also like that Knuckles got his own little exclusive parts of Green Hill and Chemical Plant. Nothing major, just the beginning of Green Hill and a piece of Chemical Plant. Didn't come across anything like that in Studiopolis, but maybe something's there and I just didn't find it.

Welp, the Steam version is getting slammed in user reviews because it uses Denuvo DRM. And apparently this was the sole reason for the delay on PC, and the Steam page never mentioned it until after the game launched (I believe all Steam games have to be up-front about any DRM used).

People are pissed that:
1) they can't play the game offline (apparently this has already been fixed)
2) the DRM affects the game's performance (I haven't noticed anything personally), and
3) they can't get a Steam refund because somehow the Sonic 1 Delay Apology Gift from two weeks ago has put Sonic Mania past the 2 week refund limit.

So that's sucking some of the goodwill out of what's otherwise been the most welcome Sonic game in decades. Damn shame. For me personally, it stings a little to know the two week "optimization" delay was merely to add DRM, but it's here now so that's water under the bridge.

Finished the game as Knuckles! Definitely a handful of Knuckles-exclusive (or at least Sonic-inaccessible) treats for him to find, maybe one in each Zone? Mirage Saloon Act 1 was really cool too, leaning on Knuckles' abilities more than the rest of the game. And that song...this game has a pile of excellent tunes, but I think Mirage Saloon Acts 1K and 2 are the top of the heap.

More importantly, I got all the Gold Medallions in the Blue Spheres bonus stages! My reward is never having to play Blue Spheres again. My other reward is a Blue Spheres launcher in the menu, with new levels that have new Green and Pink spheres...I feel like the checkpoint bonus stages would have been less tedious if they had more kinds of spheres, so I don't know why they're locked in this menu mode. Oh well.

I'm glad they were allowed to poke some fun at the way this series has been handled, as Knuckles & Knuckles mode is pretty funny.

@Mop it up There's a funny self-effacing story behind the finale of Studiopolis Act 2 as well. (2:20 in the video below, but it's all good stuff)





Speaking of goofs, I found a very nice bug:



I was spinning through one of those lotto funnels when the timer hit 10 minutes: the death sound played and the music faded out, but the game continued. Music came back when I got speed shoes. And when I beat the boss I got a 100k time bonus! Sure would be nice if I didn't have to bug out the clock to deactivate the 10-minute limit...

Well, I finished the main game. But I got a bad ending. I guess you need all of the chaos emeralds to get the good ending? Is this something I can do quick and easy or would it be annoying to have to go get them all now?

I can say Sonic grew on me a bit but it's still kind of weird as well.