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Sonic Mania Discussion (Nintendo Switch) [game]
 
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2D Sonic is back in an all-new adventure!

Play as Sonic, Tails, & Knuckles as you race through all-new Zones and fully re-imagined classics, each filled with exciting surprises and powerful bosses. Harness Sonic's new Drop Dash, Tails' flight, and Knuckles' climbing abilities to overcome the evil Dr. Eggman's robots. Discover a myriad of never-before-seen hidden paths and secrets!


Developed by Christian Whitehead, Headcannon, and PagodaWest Games in collaboration with SEGA of America, this all-new experience celebrates the best of Classic Sonic, pushing the envelope forward with stunning 60 FPS gameplay and pixel-perfect physics. Welcome to the next level for the world's fastest blue hedgehog. Welcome to Sonic Mania.


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Posted: 08/14/17, 20:54:39  - Edited by 
 on: 08/14/17, 21:02:25
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@GameDadGrant

I think you're attributing way too much passion to my original post. I am tired of Negative World being, uh, negative when it comes to Sonic, but I'm not mad about it or anything. It's just day 1400 at Negative World to see you guys trotting out arguments about Sonic punishing you for going fast - an issue I never had with Sonic for reasons I explained in my post.

But you know I'm not mad at anyone.


@nate38

My honest opinion on Sonic vs. Mario is that Mario is clearly better in retrospect, though I think the cumulative effect of Sonic 1, 2, 3 and Knuckles is a strong counter to Super Mario World (and Yoshi's Island if you want to count it) during that generation. The key to me is that Sonic was different from your standard platformer from the era and that was a good thing. But of course it wasn't on the same level as Mario. Nothing is.*


@DrFinkelstein

Yeah, I'm probably going to pick it up. I'm still phasing out gaming from my life, but I get the feeling that Sonic Mania is the type of game I'd play even if I hadn't been playing games for many years. That game's been a very long time coming.


*except DKC:TF
Posted: 08/20/17, 17:59:44  - Edited by 
 on: 08/20/17, 18:01:01
@kriswright

I know you're not mad at anyone, dood! And maybe my post came across as *too* passionate, looking back at it. I should point out I'm not mad, either. I wanted my post to come across more joking-ly.

By the way your post above reminds me I still need to play DKC:TF. Heard a lot of good things about it!

nate38 said:
I don't think Freedom Planet was in any of the "Nindie" bundles, but it was in a few Humble Bundles for PC. And there's no 3DS version, only Wii U.

Ah, no wonder I haven't played it, then. I'll check my Wii U hard drive and see if I have there. If I do, I'll give it a look.
Posted: 08/20/17, 19:31:42
@kriswright I was actually considering saying something similar in here, though you probably worded it better. While I may not be big into Sonic, I don't think it's because there is something "wrong" with them. They're well-made, with quality design, or at least the ones are on Genesis. I can't really speak for most of the rest, having not played most of them. I also think it's harder to see in hindsight the impact that certain games had for their time, and the speed of Sonic games is something that was impressive for the early 90s. I can say that, much as I like Super Mario World, I don't think it did a good job showing off the capabilities of the SNES in the way that Sonic showed what the Genesis could do.

On that note, I don't like this idea that there is a "correct" and "incorrect" way to create a game. I feel like this kind of thinking eventually leads to stifling creativity and will ultimately result in very homogenous games, similar to the AAA market. But that's probably a discussion for a different thread, hee hee.

@nate38 Freedom Planet was in one of the Humble Bundles for Nintendo systems, which is how I got it for free. And I'm glad I did, as I found the game to be quite the stinker, personally.
Posted: 08/20/17, 19:40:27  - Edited by 
 on: 08/20/17, 19:48:22
@Mop it up

Yeah. Agreed. The idea that there are "rules" to how media of any type should be created is just completely offensive to me. I think it's the kind of thing that critics and hacks come up with to help demonstrate how knowledgeable they are.

That article on Sonic being designed "incorrectly" was hilarious, because it was using framed using a criticism of Lorde by the mfer who wrote Katy Perry's "I Kissed a Girl", as if he's some expert on what makes a good song.
Posted: 08/20/17, 23:35:28
@kriswright

This is actually a really interesting take on Sonic. I read the article ST linked, and whilst I agree wholeheartedly with it's description of Sonic's design (in terms of how it plays), you're 100% right in your notion that this does not make it BAD design.

Your post strikes me as being very similar to my perspective on some of the controversial Zelda games, namely Majora's Mask & Phantom Hourglass. There's widespread criticism surrounding the design of those games and the word 'bad' gets thrown around a ton to my continual frustration. I constantly maintain that there are good and solid reasons those games have been designed as they are, and people not liking those design choices is simply a reflection on those people's personal preferences, not the design itself.
Posted: 08/21/17, 01:12:33  - Edited by 
 on: 08/21/17, 01:13:16
@Shadowlink

Right. I agree with the assessment of those two games you mention, as well. Both are potentially great, depending on how you feel about a controversial central mechanic. It's fair for someone to say those games don't work or that they just don't like them, but I hate it when they try to appeal to some unwritten Laws of Game Design to prove that the game is objectively bad. Particularly when it's a game that's well-loved by millions, like the original Genesis Sonic games or Majora's Mask.

Obviously there is a slippery slope here. Some games ARE just badly designed - things like Anubis II or E.T. or whatever. But a game like Sonic clearly isn't fundamentally broken in that way.


As for Sonic Mania - I picked it up and burned through a few levels and, yeah... probably already the best Sonic game I've played since Sonic and Knuckles. Or, at least, second only to Generations, which I felt was really great (though I shockingly enjoyed the 3D parts even more than the 2D ones). I think Mania probably takes the crown from Sonic 2 as the best game to start a new player with Sonic. It's really that good. If you never understood the appeal of Sonic, then this is a good place to start. And, hey, only 20 bucks. Not much to lose.
Posted: 08/21/17, 04:56:47  - Edited by 
 on: 08/21/17, 04:57:14
@kriswright Well, I'm not going to get into a big argument here, but "there is no issue with going fast because when you hit something you don't lose all of your rings" is certainly not how I feel. Getting hit by something that came out of nowhere feels "wrong" no matter if I survive it or not. Doubly so if it happens so fast I'm not even sure I could humanly react to it.

Also no offense but you "quitting" gaming feels like Miyazaki "retiring" from making movies the like... 10 times he has done it now.
Posted: 08/21/17, 08:11:07
@Zero

Eh, feelings are only in your head. You say it feels wrong, I say it doesn't? Who's right? Neither of us. But if neither of us is right, then it kinda proves the point that there's no "Rules of Game Design" being violated. So that's only in your head, too.

...Oh snap. I sound all philosophical like JKR. I'll stop.


Anyway, I get why you feel that way about me quitting gaming. You don't understand how serious I am about it and then you see me playing Sonic Mania and you think, "This guy is quitting gaming... yeah right. All it will take is one Mario Odyssey and he's back." But not this time.

The problem is I never sat down and finished that review of Breath of the Wild, which explains my feelings about the whole matter. As I've mentioned before, the goal isn't to renounce gaming and become a teetotaller who condemns it. A guy can retire from playing basketball in the NBA and still shoot a game of hoops with his buddies by the garage every now and then. That's more the metaphor. I may play a game or two every now and then.

But I'm done keeping up with gaming. I'm done with the culture of gaming. I'm done buying new consoles. I'm done keeping up with the arms race. I'm done stockpiling cartridges in my closet. In fact, I've already got plans tonight to record a game session with my brother-in-law while we test a bunch of cartridges earmarked for eBay to see if they work. So the sell-off is already in progress, it's just slow because I've got a daughter and can't devote all my time to this sort of thing.
Posted: 08/21/17, 19:01:50
I just beat Sonic Mania. Twice. I got the "bad" ending (the typical "TRY AGAIN" for not getting all seven chaos emeralds) with only four emeralds, and I really didn't think I was on the last stage. It was a long game (twelve zones, each with two stages), but it never felt like it dragged out.

So I went back to a quick bonus stage farming point repeatedly (Chemical Plant 1, get to the first four-way and go left) to get the last three. The only bonus stage I had lots of trouble on was the fifth. With that done, I beat the Titanic Monarch Zone again, proceeded to the real final boss(es), and closed it out.

Deaths never felt cheap, and my typical rewards for speed was something nice, like an elemental shield, rings, an extra life, or a bonus stage. The controls were tighter than I remember Sonic being in the past (and they were good back on the Genesis). All in all, I felt like I was playing a very polished Genesis game. This might be the best Sonic ever made. Definitely the best one since Sonic & Knuckles.
Posted: 08/21/17, 22:31:38
@kriswright But you're arguing about a new Sonic game on a gaming forum. Isn't that peak gaming culture engagement?!
Posted: 08/22/17, 10:52:40
@Zero It's not peak until we're arguing about whether or not this Sonic game's themes center around the apocalyptic trajectory of the military-industrial complex and the Bush administration, as I once witnessed on the IGN Sonic board.
Posted: 08/22/17, 16:15:23
@Zero

Are you telling me to just go away already?
Posted: 08/22/17, 17:36:36
Took down Robuttnik with Sonic and Tails today, but he had the last laugh since I didn't have all the emeralds! The game was fun enough to warrant another playthrough with someone else, so I'll be trying that soon.

My complaint about enemy telegraphing still stands! It somehow persisted throughout the entire game. Who would've thought that this guy...



...would deal damage if you tried to jump attack or spin-dash it??

Not trying to pick on Sonic or Sega--in fact, I'd say one of Sega's games, Skies of Arcadia, beats the pants off any non-Mother Nintendo RPG--but it's not a perfect series. When done right, though, it's quite good, and I'm glad I picked up Sonic Mania.
Posted: 08/22/17, 17:48:31  - Edited by 
 on: 08/22/17, 17:50:07
@TriforceBun From what I've read, Knuckles is the way to go for a second playthrough, as he gets access to portions of levels that Sonic doesn't (Knuckles can walk right through breakable walls, including some that Sonic and Tails can't pass through at all). He also gets an entirely different Mirage Saloon Act 1 that better features his gliding and climbing.
Posted: 08/22/17, 18:20:56
@nate38
Shucks, I suck with the Knux. I was planning on trying my boy Tails next.
Posted: 08/22/17, 18:24:29
@TriforceBun I think Tails might have a few goodies of his own hidden away from where Sonic can reach, but I'm not sure. In S3+K Knuckles was the one with the more obvious and substantial diversions, and that seems to be the case in Mania as well.

Ugh the PC release is still a week away. I was so desperate for more Sonic-ish action that I bought Spark the Electric Jester on Steam. The reviews described it as Sonic (fast, loose controls) meets Kirby (copy abilities) meets Mega Man X (charge shot, wall slide/kicks). Every now nad then you can kind of feel the potential there, but unfortunately it mostly feels like a watered down cocktail of those three iconic series.
Posted: 08/22/17, 18:45:57
TriforceBun said:
My complaint about enemy telegraphing still stands! It somehow persisted throughout the entire game. Who would've thought that this guy...



...would deal damage if you tried to jump attack or spin-dash it??
I think that's a fairly good example of "objectively bad game design". I'm really not on board with the idea that there's no such thing.

Not to say that there can't be games where you'd WANT ambiguity or to flat out trick players into attacking something in appearance inoffensive. Like, roguelikes are built on the idea that the potion you're holding could restore your health or be poison.

But in the context of a platformer, especially a fast platformer, you'd want to wrap this guy in spikes or electrical sparks or something.
Posted: 08/22/17, 19:18:59
@kriswright


@TriforceBun It confused me too at first that there is a spin jump and a... not spin jump? and some enemies will hurt you if you didn't do the spin jump? Because you just kind of USUALLY do the spin jump, and honestly I still don't understand why you sometimes don't.
Posted: 08/22/17, 19:54:47  - Edited by 
 on: 08/22/17, 19:56:45
@Zero If Sonic is not spinning, you will take damage if you touch any enemy. I think there might be one or two exceptions, enemies that don't damage you with contact, but none off the top of my head.

When you jump specifically by hitting the jump button, you always do the spin jump. When you get launched by some stage piece, like a spring or a teeter-totter, you don't spin. There are exceptions, like pinball bumpers or the Flubber in Chemical Plant, that just keep you in whatever state you were in when you made contact. So if you're spinning when you hit the Flubber, you keep spinning as you bounce off of it.
Posted: 08/22/17, 20:21:03
@Zero

Don't forget the drop dash. That's super effective, and great for picking up speed.
Posted: 08/22/17, 20:57:50
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