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Fatal Frame 5 censored for NA. Your opinion? [roundtable]
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@Anand Well, WayForward is VERY publisher driven from what I hear, so I don't know how much that affects their own projects. But my point was that we don't really know who makes these decisions and how much of the team are ok with them. Like pretty much all of Yacht Club is ex-WayForward so that is like 4 or 5 people? and pretty much every one of them I spoke to so far (I think 3 of them?) specifically cited that as something they weren't comfortable with but had to go along with while working there. Was it just them, or were there more? I was thinking about this earlier and the question that popped into my mind is "Who exactly are we saying is being censored?" It's a simple question when an individual makes a game that later gets censored, but when a whole team does it becomes a lot more complicated. If we're talking about a dev team as a whole, there are probably a whole variety of opinions on these kind of things being put into their games to begin with, let alone opinions on them being replaced. Most dev teams are too big to say any one thing was the vision of the whole team. For all we know 51+% of the team were against the inclusion to begin with, so it wouldn't make sense to say the whole team's vision is being censored without the knowledge of how many supported the decision. If we're talking about whichever individuals made the specific decision to put this stuff in, fine, I guess? But we have no idea whether those individuals had the blessing of the rest of their team or not. I've heard a lot of stories from ex-AAA developers about one or two people up top deciding something is going in while most of the rest of the team opposes it, and guess what? In it goes, because ultimately these are capitalist businesses and the people on top make the decisions. If someone on top decides "sex sells", good luck to the individual artists who disagree. So yeah, my only reason for bringing up Yacht Club was to point to an example of dissent among the actual developers that didn't really lead to anything other than them having to go along with something they weren't comfortable with. The sexy women in were certainly not THEIR artistic vision. So whose artistic vision exactly were they? As far as your actual question, yeah, I have some issues with primarily male dev teams deciding to overtly sexualize most to all of their female characters, but we have all gone over this a million times before and I don't want another tropes thread here. I'd rather focus on the question of who is actually making these decisions to begin with and whether we can really just assume they are the "vision" of the whole dev team or not. Because based on my knowledge of how these things work, that'd be a very poor assumption. To flip things around a bit, a very GOOD assumption is that every individual working for a company has a vision for what they would love to do in a game and 99 times out of 100 the final product won't reflect their vision much, because marketing, publishers, team conflicts, etc. When do we decide that is censorship of an artist's vision versus basic teamwork in a for profit company? Like, does anyone really think individual game developers working for AAA companies have much artistic freedom to begin with? Because I can point you to a few ex-AAA developers to talk to if so. |
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Actually now that I really think about it I have talked to a LOT of ex-AAA developers who cited over-sexualized women as something they were not comfortable with at their last job, and exactly zero that cited I dunno, what would be the opposite... over-prudeness as something they were not comfortable with at their last job? Very anecdotal, but my own personal conclusion is that, generally speaking, game developers are forced to over-sexualize women at a significantly higher magnitude than they are forced to under-sexualize women, so... I can't get too up in arms about this kind of thing in regards to developer freedom and vision. If we really cared about developer freedom and vision we would have to support a shift to a significantly different game market. @Anand What are we talking about exactly? Them making a licensed game for another publisher, or them making their own games for another publisher who happens to be funding it? Either way I can't really care too much about someone saying if we fund your game we have a few rules for it. They're paying the bills, right? I mean, I have a lot of problems with Capitalism putting too much power in the hands of a limited few, but ultimately my concern there is that those in power will use that power to push things towards more conformity. In the case of wanting less sexualized women in a game, that'd be (sadly), a push towards less conformity, which is at least an interesting thing for a Capitalist publisher to push for. Much better than the current state of AAA publisher demands. |
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This specific situation is a form of censorship, but not the purest form. I mean, it's Nintendo's right as the publisher to modify the game in the way it thinks will garner the most sales in the region. But they probably ARE modifying the vision of at least some part of Tecmo. They replaced it with some neat content, but they did remove part of the original product (which is still rated M and targeted solely at adults, due to mature/disturbing themes and violence). @ZeroJust assume it for the sake of argument. I'm not saying that it's true. I'm saying, IF that were the case, would you be cool with his vision being altered by an outside entity. For the sake of a pure argument, let's say that it would be censored by... I dunno, the ESRB or the government, instead of the funding publisher. It's just a hypothetical situation. But I guess you answered it, anyway. |
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@TriforceBun Yeah but I mean 80s horror and since. Maybe it is just the "slasher" genre. I've heard interesting theories on why this was a big theme. Aids crisis and all of that. Horror always reflects reality in some ways. If I think hard on it the really nerdy virgins probably don't stand much of a chance either. Just the mostly pure "normal" people. So maybe you get punished for having too much or not enough sex. Which certainly sounds like how society judges us. I vaguely recall The Cabin in the Woods playing with this trope but I forget how exactly? /EDIT Oh, here is it. Major spoilers for that movie... "The Ancient Ones are kept in perpetual slumber through an annual pars pro toto sacrifice of five young people embodying certain archetypes: the whore (Jules), the athlete (Curt), the scholar (Holden), the fool (Marty), and the virgin (Dana). The order in which intended victims perish is flexible, so long as the Whore dies first and the Virgin survives or dies last."But I feel like maybe they messed up and assumed she was a virgin when she wasn't or something? I dunno, it's been awhile since I saw it. I dunno. My main point was just that whether or not sexuality and horror go hand in hand, it's tough for me to see having women run around exploring for ghosts while wearing swimsuits / underwear (I honestly can't tell which it is) as a part of that. It doesn't really feel like a decision fueled by respecting the roots or horror or anything. Also I'd hesitate to call it "sexuality". I mean, I don't know why anyone would dress like that to explore haunted places but I doubt it would have much to do with sex. Unless you mean the viewer's sexuality. |
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