Yep, I'm makin' it a roundtable.

Not to get too "political" on you, but I watched this six-part video series recently, and I thought it was really well-done. It may seem like a typical anti-GamerGate video at the start, but it isn't. It isn't even truly about Anita Sarkeesian. The analysis is very logical and even-handed, and I appreciated the way that it recast the whole feminism issue (or any social progress issue, really) by framing it from the perspective of the people whom it irritates. Honestly, it almost single-handedly repaired the damage done to my judgement by thousands upon thousands of strident internet-liberals.

Try to go in without any pre-conceived expectations and watch it with an open mind.








I'll give you the Cliffs Notes, in case you don't want to watch right now. Essentially, the video series analyzes WHY people like Anita Sarkeesian produce such a strong negative reaction, and it goes beyond the usual simplistic "They're taking our games!!" rhetoric. This guy posits that the REAL, underlying reason why Anita makes many gamers uncomfortable is that she causes them to question their way they've lived their life to this point. Ignorance is bliss, and the aim of people like Anita is to remove that ignorance. Like the term "privilege". A lot of people hate that term, and it's always rubbed me the wrong way, as well. But it doesn't mean that your life is peaches and cream or that every person from a minority has it tough. It just means that a minority person in the same position as you would have it harder, solely due to the way they were born.

That's an uncomfortable thought, as most people think of themselves as fundamentally good people, and acknowledging that you've never questioned your advantages or thought to help the less fortunate would call your own morality into question. And we're ALL guilty of that, to be honest. It's almost unnatural behavior to revolt against a system that personally benefits you. I mean, I don't like the thought of killing living creatures. I find the thought of hunting utterly revolting. I don't even swat mosquitoes or gnats. If I really considered the fact that animals had to die just so I could enjoy a hamburger, I'd probably be a vegetarian. So I don't WANT to consider it. Because meat is delicious!

Similarly, look at freaking FoxConn. All of our consumer electronics products are basically made of Chinese children. Who the fuck wants to think about that?! What's the alternative?

I'm not saying that I'm necessarily going to change my behavior based on this video series. I still believe that ignorance is bliss, and if you spend all of your time thinking about the evils of the world, your life's probably not going to be very enjoyable. But I still think it was worth watching. It kind of brought stuff that has always been floating at the back of my consciousness to the forefront. And what I most appreciate is that it did so in a non-judgmental way. It might make you a bit uncomfortable, but it definitely won't single you out.

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"Asians are smart" kinda stems from something more nuanced.

Let's take a look at Japanese culture. There's a very high emphasis on success in Japan; they attend school 6 days a week, they have surprisingly low (non-mafia-related) crime rates, and screwing up means dishonoring your family name. The culture just emphasizes hard work more than most, and it's directly related to facts like much much lower crime rates and even things like traditional RPGs being more popular there. The downside is the much much higher suicide rate from people who feel like they can't live up to a particular standard imposed upon them in society.

So I don't think it's necessarily wildly off-base to say "Asians are smart"--I mean, it's a stereotype and obviously there's a lot more nuance there, but it's rooted in the fact that Japan (in this case) emphasizes hard work and education more than America. It's easier and punchier to boil that down to "smart" instead of a mouthful of modifier words, even if those are more accurate.

I CAN SAY ALL THIS BECAUSE I VISITED JAPAN FOR TEN DAYS. I'M AN EXPERT.

I kinda miss when this thread was about Peach and Zelda though.

@TriforceBun

That could maybe be defended if someone said something about Japanese people being smart (still a bad idea) but the stereotype is Asian people are smart. Asia is a continent of something like 50 countries so Japan is comparatively very small. So by all means talk about how Japan values education and success but comments like 'asians are smart' are just useless garbage people repeat because they've heard it too many times.

Speaking of the Asian-in-America stereotype, I always thought that Asians typically performed better academically because America only let successful professionals (or good students) immigrate into the country. So, it's the Darwinian cream of one crop vs. the entirety of another.

@Stephen
I mean, I didn't bring up the issue in the first place. Do you actually want to talk about the cultural values at the root of what I mentioned? It's not going to be a comfortable conversation.

@Anand

That was always kinda my take, too. Next to Steph, my two best friends are first generation Indian immigrants (and I've learned in this thread that they apparently hate black people) and they're both successful software engineers. The selection argument is how they explained the situation with all the smart Indians we know. Or, to put it another way, my friend Pradeep says they have the equivalent of dumb crackers in India, too, those guys just don't make it over to the U.S.

This is all a very disheartening conversation, by the way.

Relevant: "Our research debunks the idea that there is something intrinsic about Asian culture, traits or values that produces exceptional educational outcomes." People need to understand there's a huge selection bias when it comes to Asian immigrants at American universities. Most schools have a specific quota for international students. MIT, for example, only allows 10% of its undergraduates to be from abroad. Think about the kind of competitive atmosphere that creates, even compared to the general pool of MIT applicants, and who is likely to make it in.

Is that stereotype in America really that much about the Japanese though? The Asian population in America is more dominated by the Chinese, and I think Filipino and Korean populations are also larger than the Japanese here?

I dunno. Another negative part of "beneficial racism" is it allows people to divide say... immigrants... into "good" and "bad" groups based on their ethnicity. Because the natural result of dubbing one group "good" is that there kind of has to be the "bad", right? And this allows people to be super, super racist but present themselves as not racist, just against the "bad", because like... if they were total racists, they would dislike ALL other ethnicities, right? But they're totally cool with the "good" groups who don't cause any trouble like the Asian immigrants, so that PROVES they're not racist! Just keep those Middle Easterners and Mexicans out.

Anand said:

@Stephen
I mean, I didn't bring up the issue in the first place. Do you actually want to talk about the cultural values at the root of what I mentioned? It's not going to be a comfortable conversation.

Ah, I see where this is going. Everyone open "World Religions" and turn to chapter 37, "The Hindu Caste System".

@Anand

I know you didn't but Mustache did. Are you asking us to just accept that statement without going in to the particulars of why you think that stereotype is true? If you don't think it is worth going over then that's fine but it means I and I would hope others will just dismiss it as racist misinformation.

@kriswright
Nah, it's more related to the universal concept of color discrimination. Which is kind of ironic, because India pretty much covers the whole spectrum, in terms of skin color. But in India, it's not just black vs. white. There's a relative status for all shades in between. (This also explains the subconscious inferiority complex (and subsequent resentment) that many Indians feel towards caucasians.)

Also, fear of the unfamiliar. And a lot of what they have heard of black culture probably comes from unflattering portrayals in American media.

Potential solutions: Nothing obvious. Try to include positive portrayals of blacks in Indian media? A mixed-race musical love story?

@Stephen
As for why I feel confident (but not necessarily happy) in making the statement, just hundreds and hundreds of empirical data points. Keep in mind, the prejudice is often very mild, to the point where you wouldn't notice it in casual conversation.

Also, my college roommate was black.

Stephen said:

As for the insurance thing I think it is a poor system. The only variables that should matter are experience of the driver, culpability of incidents they have been a part of, and the vehicle that is being driven.

The experts in the field disagree with you. Shouldn't you be deferring to their knowledge?

@Zero
Probably, but I know even less about Chinese culture. Just wanted to give my take on where it might come from regarding Japanese people.

@Jargon
Hm, this seems to only talk about the Chinese as well.

Related to all this, I think the term "asian" is kind of annoyingly broad and lumps together a bunch of different races. Aren't Russians technically asian, for instance?

Somewhat less-related, I always thought it was weird how "an American" is fine but "a Chinese" isn't. Try it with sentences!

"He is an American."
"He is a Chinese."
"He is a Canadian."
"He is a Japanese."
"He is an Albanian."
"He is an Irish."

Isn't it weird how they're all adjectives used as nouns, but only some sound okay? Looking into it closer, I think the reason is actually that if the word ends in "-an," it's fine, and if it doesn't, it's not.

An Italian. A German. An Armenian. A Louisianian. A Kenyan. A Korean.

Weird...

@Shadowlink

The field of what exactly? Insuring motorists? Their expertise is measured by what, profit of the company? You think that makes discrimination alright? That's a great deal different than say deferring to scientists on matters they spend their lives studying.

@Stephen

The field of actuary that analyses statistical data for use when it comes to pricing risk. If it's not statistically relevant, then it wouldn't be considered. That's not discrimination, it's mathematics.

I feel like we've gone far afield from the original question of whether Anand's anecdotal perception of people from India should be so trusted to be used as a basis to prejudge anyone from India as racist against black people.

@Jargon
I thought the original question was about Anita's videos making people angry.

Speaking of which, Zelda Zelda Zelda damsel Sheik Dinosaur Planet.

@Shadowlink

There's an old saying that these experts in statistics should know, and it goes:

Correlation does not equal causation.

Just because women may have a lower incident rate than men does not mean men are biologically predisposed to be worse drivers. If they disagree with that, well then sorry but they are by definition sexist.

And sure, you might make more of a profit by following this sexist myth all it costs you is the indecency of not treating people equally.

@Shadowlink Um, it being statistically relevant doesn't make it not discrimination. I'm not a statistic I'm a human being. I shouldn't have to pay more for insurance just because other guys suck at driving. That's pretty much the very definition of discrimination.

Just imagine if they tried to pull that nonsense with ethnicity and how fast it would get shut down. White people have to pay more for car insurance. Or almost anything else really. Straight people have to pay more for insurance. Etc.

Gender and age seem to be two of the few places people just kind of accept discrimination in for one reason or another. When it comes to cars at least having teenagers pay more could be considered to be related more to experience than age (although I am sure many teens have a lot more driving experience than many adults) and anyone driving their whole lives will roughly be affected by the differences equally. Gender though? Bah.

@TriforceBun I think he was making a funny.

@TriforceBun

Actually, we're both wrong, the original question is whether Anand should be allowed to make more roundtables.

kriswright said:

@Anand

Next to Steph, my two best friends are first generation Indian immigrants (and I've learned in this thread that they apparently hate black people)

I've learned that I'm smug about being a vegan, even though I've never mentioned that I am.

@Hero_Of_Hyrule
You know, I've always noticed a certain smugness in your posts. But I could never quite pin down why...