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OT: Hey, let's discuss this video series about the Sarkeesian backlash! [roundtable]
 
Yep, I'm makin' it a roundtable.

Not to get too "political" on you, but I watched this six-part video series recently, and I thought it was really well-done. It may seem like a typical anti-GamerGate video at the start, but it isn't. It isn't even truly about Anita Sarkeesian. The analysis is very logical and even-handed, and I appreciated the way that it recast the whole feminism issue (or any social progress issue, really) by framing it from the perspective of the people whom it irritates. Honestly, it almost single-handedly repaired the damage done to my judgement by thousands upon thousands of strident internet-liberals.

Try to go in without any pre-conceived expectations and watch it with an open mind.








I'll give you the Cliffs Notes, in case you don't want to watch right now. Essentially, the video series analyzes WHY people like Anita Sarkeesian produce such a strong negative reaction, and it goes beyond the usual simplistic "They're taking our games!!" rhetoric. This guy posits that the REAL, underlying reason why Anita makes many gamers uncomfortable is that she causes them to question their way they've lived their life to this point. Ignorance is bliss, and the aim of people like Anita is to remove that ignorance. Like the term "privilege". A lot of people hate that term, and it's always rubbed me the wrong way, as well. But it doesn't mean that your life is peaches and cream or that every person from a minority has it tough. It just means that a minority person in the same position as you would have it harder, solely due to the way they were born.

That's an uncomfortable thought, as most people think of themselves as fundamentally good people, and acknowledging that you've never questioned your advantages or thought to help the less fortunate would call your own morality into question. And we're ALL guilty of that, to be honest. It's almost unnatural behavior to revolt against a system that personally benefits you. I mean, I don't like the thought of killing living creatures. I find the thought of hunting utterly revolting. I don't even swat mosquitoes or gnats. If I really considered the fact that animals had to die just so I could enjoy a hamburger, I'd probably be a vegetarian. So I don't WANT to consider it. Because meat is delicious!

Similarly, look at freaking FoxConn. All of our consumer electronics products are basically made of Chinese children. Who the fuck wants to think about that?! What's the alternative?

I'm not saying that I'm necessarily going to change my behavior based on this video series. I still believe that ignorance is bliss, and if you spend all of your time thinking about the evils of the world, your life's probably not going to be very enjoyable. But I still think it was worth watching. It kind of brought stuff that has always been floating at the back of my consciousness to the forefront. And what I most appreciate is that it did so in a non-judgmental way. It might make you a bit uncomfortable, but it definitely won't single you out.

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07/23/15, 21:45    Edited: 07/30/15, 05:09
 
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Mr_Mustache said:
But that quickly escalates to "you don't see a problem? YOU'RE the problem." Look at the hate spewing in this thread, man. Whats that about?

I'm looking, but so far I see no hate spewing. People are disagreeing with you but as far as I can tell it has been in a very civil manner.

As for the second part of your post, I think it goes back to "we're all different people." I don't know why, but it seems like a good number of people need to feel like they're being represented in the game they're playing, as opposed to playing as another character. I saw what was said to Tim about "I wouldn't care if I had to play as __________," and then he was doused in "white privilege." I, too, don't really care who I have to play as. I'm playing a game, not living real life. I can't imagine someone complaining about Samus being a guy, haha. That seems so nuts to me.

Yeah I agree. So let's ask ourselves then why is it such an unreasonable proposition that more games feature more diverse protagonists? And despite what we might think about how it doesn't matter (which is arguable given how insidious some of these roles are imprinted on us) it does matter to some people. There was a thread that a while back where someone said they couldn't relate to playing a game as a woman. Now even if you disagree with that it shows that it does matter to some people. That means it probably also matters to people who aren't being catered to.

But anyway, for those people who NEED to play as a girl to fully enjoy the game, its just a line of thinking I'll never understand. And I couldn't / wouldn't want to play as a guy every single game either. And I don't. The games with create-a-players, sure, but when I'm not given the choice? Thats the way the game is. (Do those girls ONLY see Jill as a viable player in Resident Evil? Would any of them even venture a thought about playing as Chris? For what its worth, I played with Jill myself.) Some of my favorite videogame characters are female. I wonder where these characters are hiding when the conversations about negative representations come out to play.

There do exist good characters sure. You mentioned Resident Evil which is a series that has had some problems with women characters. At least from the games I have played. 4 had Ada who was pretty cool (though she wore a dress to fight zombie for some reason) and Ashley who is a pretty safe bet as a damsel. 5 had Sheva who was a really cool playable character but you needed to play her in either co-op or beat the game once already to play as her. It also had Excella who was dressed like she was going to a ball and Jill who at this point has been mindcontrolled and put in to a skintight suit for you to save. 6 had some good playable female characters and Ada shows up at some point but I can't recall too much else about it.

I don't know which one it was that had the woman with her eyes covered by hair like a sheepdog with her tits on display. That was probably the worst the series got.

08/12/15, 00:00   
@Stephen
That was Revelations you're talking about with the "sheepdog" look. I thought her design was absolutely stupid...buuuut it actually existed that way for a reason and they ended up doing something cool with her. Her name is Rachel and she dies in the ship before the game begins. When you next see her, she's turned into this half-monster thing and talks in a really creepy way ("Foooooouuund youuuuuuu...") and suddenly the previously-stupid hair/open shirt look ends up working really well for a monster design. One of the more clever inversions from RE. Ick! Creepy! The hair turns into tentacles.

Also, I'm not sure I'd point to RE5 as being that sexist when it's the game with the ridiculously roided-out Chris Redfield! And there's a huge amount of sexual fan-made stuff with him floating around out there. Google with Safesearch off if you dare.
08/12/15, 00:08   
Edited: 08/12/15, 00:09
@TriforceBun

That monster looks pretty ridiculous. RE has done the sexy monster idea before as well. 6 had a basically nude woman with monstrous arms coming out of her back she would attack you with like Doctor Octopus. I think Ada (or her clone anyway) turns in to a monster at some point as well.

Chris is so over the top in 5. I think that his portrayal in 5 falls squarely in to the power fantasy camp which is designed to appeal to men to want to be Chris so you too can punch any boulders that get in your way.
08/12/15, 00:40   
Stephen said:
There was a thread that a while back where someone said they couldn't relate to playing a game as a woman. Now even if you disagree with that it shows that it does matter to some people. That means it probably also matters to people who aren't being catered to.

That was one person, and it was GameWizard (and Brook to a degree after him). Now, are you going to overhaul "videogames as a whole" for GameWizard? No, The Cavalry galloped in and essentially shamed him out of the building. "Fun" begins here. Enjoy.


(And wayyyyyy too much crap being dumped on pre-release Hyrule Warriors in that thread, what the hell...)
08/12/15, 00:54   
@Mr_Mustache

So you think then that games are totally fine as is and people who want better representation should just deal with the current landscape and not voice their concerns?
08/12/15, 01:03   
@Stephen

Now, you know full well that I've suggested time and time again those people who have a problem with it should MAKE THEIR OWN GAMES. No, I'm not saying "make those games for you and you only," but to introduce something into the landscape that they see as great, and maybe us stinky hairy guys can enjoy it, too. I know that a GOOD NUMBER of people on here would claim those games as certified greatness regardless, despite what they may feel deep down, but thats another story for another day.

Lets talk about porn. Zero mentioned it in a thread (was it this thread?) about how porn is becoming more female-friendly or whatever. I don't know if thats the case exactly, but I do know that Candida Royale is a company that caters more to women while still featuring penises. We got to watch the film "3 Sisters" in college for extra credit in my Human Sexuality class. It really wasn't for me, but some people dig it, I'm sure. It felt more tame than stuff you'd fine on HBO, if you can imagine that.

Also, Girlfriends Films puts out ONLY lesbian erotica. Last I knew they were up to Women Seeking Women 91. 91!!!! (And I wouldn't be surprised if they were up to 127 or something by now.) (See also: Filly Films)


If the adult industry can do it time and time again, year after year, why can't a similar group put out ONE videogame?
Ridiculous!

"One videogame won't change anything," yeah; how about 100?
08/12/15, 01:32   
@Mr_Mustache

So if you had some fetish that wasn't being catered to in porn in your mind it makes more sense to become a pornographer rather than ask companies that already make porn to try and fill out their lineup?
08/12/15, 01:42   
Stache, a ton of women are making their own games now. In fact, part of why this Gamergate nonsense started is a woman who was making her own games got attacked by a bunch of angry dudes who don't like that her games aren't the kind of games they think the industry should be making, and especially didn't like that she got attention from the media for her games. She's not the only one. In fact, I'd say a large part of why Gamergate is so angry is that they see things changing and don't like it.

But that doesn't really address a lot of the root issues people like Anita bring up with the industry either.

Also, when the default response of a male-dominated industry is to attack women making games that they don't like, you end up with some pretty high barriers of entry for women. We should work to make that better as well.
08/12/15, 01:44   
Edited: 08/12/15, 01:45
@Stephen
RE: Revelations came out before RE6. I don't think Rachel was supposed to be sexy in that form anyway, I just thought it was a cool, creepy monster design that was hideous because of its similarities to what the person used to be.

I don't think I agree with "sexy woman=sexist, sexy man=male power fantasy" thing. It might apply sometimes, but it sounds more like an easy way to have your cake and eat it too in trying to prove games are sexist. Why can't it go the other way? "Sexy woman=female power fantasy, sexy man=sexist?" I'm absolutely positive that some women feel empowered playing as Lara Croft or Ivy Valentine, and find men like roided-out Chris Redfield extremely attractive. I don't want to keep going back to the fan art well, but...seriously, there's a bunch out there that pretty much confirms this.

Not to say that some designs don't go too far, obviously. But I never liked the "male power fantasy" argument.
08/12/15, 01:45   
Edited: 08/12/15, 01:47
@TriforceBun

This comic sums it up:



But you are right, people do crush on Chris Redfield despite him being a power fantasy. That could be the case for women too! Look at Chris's partner Sheva. She is just as capable and her design isn't exploited. Ivy could be empowering to some just like a dude in a banana hammock could be empowering to people. A lot of people though are going to criticize the design as exploitative sex appeal though and to be fair, there's no reason for Ivy to be fighting in her current getup. She could be just as empowering and less exploitative if she wore something reasonable for a fight.
08/12/15, 01:56   
@TriforceBun Because in these discussions you have to look at who the creators are and who their target consumers are. We KNOW most of those type of games are created primarily by men, and we know their target audiences are primarily men. It's a perfectly legitimate conclusion to say that they are, generally speaking, designing their male characters to appeal to men and their female characters to appeal to men as well. Which isn't inherently bad, but when you are lazy and irresponsible with your female character designs compared to your male ones for the million reasons we have already talked about, then it gets problematic.

And that's when you also get into appropriation territory. If you're designing characters that represent demographics you are not a part of, you should be more careful in designing them to not represent these groups in a negative light, not less.
08/12/15, 01:56   
@Stephen

If I was already someone in the porn industry with ties to actors, directors, photographers, and had the capitol? YES.

@Zero

You said it yourself, girls are making their own games. And I know the designer of Bayonetta is female, so I'm SURE there are more. Again, we've gone over this before. Isn't the designer of Bayonetta a respected female in the industry? Would everyone TURN ON HER if she made a different game? No, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't.

@TriforceBun

Some women DEFINITELY feel empowered being all sexy. I'm pretty sure a girl or two in Zero's Bayonetta project remarked so. Furthermore, when I was working at DialAmerica (telemarketing), I got to hear one of my female bosses talk in EXPLICIT DETAIL about all the things she'd do to sweaty, oiled up Batista. ON THE SALES FLOOR. Not in the parking lot after hours, or shooting the breeze at the bar. I'm talking full on, ON THE CLOCK, babblings of fantasy. Freakin' GROSS. If I did that about a girl, I would've been fired before I even finished my sentence.


Not a videogame..
08/12/15, 01:59   
@Mr_Mustache The designer of Bayonetta is an artist not a programmer, she wouldn't be making her own games. She could get a team together perhaps. But she works for a "AAA" company where there are a lot more rules. She can't just walk into work tomorrow and demand that they make her ideas into a game. She's essentially working within a male-dominated system.

To answer your question though... sure people would turn on developers if they started making games they don't like. Happens all the time. Gone Home, for instance, is a game made by industry veterans who have worked on Bioshock and such, aka respected developers, but it's a more "artsy" game where you play as a lesbian exploring her house. The Gamergate crowd HATES this, and have spent a lot of time and energy attacking the game, trying to discredit the developers, etc. It's easy to go from liked to hated by these people... just make a game that doesn't conform to the male-dominated norm.

Anyway, there are only so many industry veterans who are women, and not all of them are going to throw away their stable jobs to go make the games they want to make, which is fine. Most of the games I've seen coming from women are coming from new blood. Unfortunately they often get attacked simply for not conforming to what a lot of these angry Jack type thinks the industry should be like. It's a shitty situation all around.
08/12/15, 02:09   
Edited: 08/12/15, 02:30
TriforceBun said:


Also, I'm not sure I'd point to RE5 as being that sexist when it's the game with the ridiculously roided-out Chris Redfield!

TriforceBun said:
Why can't it go the other way? "Sexy woman=female power fantasy, sexy man=sexist?"

So, by your own logic RE5 is sexist. Even if you don't buy into the male power fantasy idea, you should be against the prevalence of scantily dressed men and women.

@Zero

Spoilers
08/12/15, 02:25   
Is that a spoiler?! I actually never played that game, I just assumed it was like something you knew from the start the way everyone talks about it.

I guess I can spoiler tag it, though without that detail my comment kind of makes no sense in context.
08/12/15, 02:29   
@Zero

Yea you know nothing going in. At least if you were able to avoid online discussion like I was. I'm glad I did, it definitely made it a more interesting experience.
08/12/15, 02:33   
@Mr_Mustache

By capital you mean the kickstarter money? Using that money for any purpose other than the making of those videos/allowing her to focus on making the videos would be pretty dishonest. Also, 100k won't get you very far when making a game. Indie games sure, but big titles like Zelda or Mario? Not even close.
08/12/15, 03:20   
@Mr_Mustache

What if a woman wants to play games that star positive female characters but doesn't have the desire or means to devote her life to creating games? Is she just out of luck?

Do you think you would still feel this way if you were a woman or black or homosexual (or all three)? Would you say that it is okay that you are unfairly represented because you didn't make a game the way you wanted? Does this logic apply to other things? If I want more cup holders in my next car do I have to make my own car instead of asking that next time they install more cup holders?

And you can say that anyone could make a game if they tried hard enough but that simply isn't true. And even if it were, representation shouldn't be bound by the finances and time necessary to acquire the skills necessary for creating a game. We don't have to do a single thing to receive the representation that we do, but you're essentially asking that marginalized groups change their career plans to see the same level of representation that is handed to us. In that world, representation will be given to the wealthiest and those with the most free time.

And what about large scale games? The industry is male dominated and, like most STEM fields, is not very welcoming towards women. If we can't ask men already in the industry to be more welcoming toward women, it's going to take a flood of women entering the industry to see a change in representation at the AAA level.
08/12/15, 04:49   
Edited: 08/12/15, 04:55
@Hero_Of_Hyrule Or if you know... not enough games are coming to the Wii U because the 3DS is more popular. "Just make your own Wii U games!"
08/12/15, 07:12   
@Jargon
Maybe so. Is a game sexist if it deliberately has sexy men and women? Or is it just pandering?

To be honest, I don't even like RE5.

Zero said:
@Hero_Of_Hyrule Or if you know... not enough games are coming to the Wii U because the 3DS is more popular. "Just make your own Wii U games!"
Way ahead of ya!
08/12/15, 07:15   
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