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The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask 3D Discussion (Nintendo 3DS) [game]
 
The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask 3D on the 3DS
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Welcome to the official discussion thread for The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask 3D on the 3DS!

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Some things in life are inevitable. Death. Taxes. The moon falling from the sky and obliterating the world. And of course, remakes of popular video games.

With the recent announcement of Majora's Mask 3D, Nintendo manages to cover the entire list. (Unless your video game prices don't include sales tax, in which case, lucky you.)



Thankfully, it seems that this will be no lazy remake. According to a recent interview with Eiji Aonuma, work on Majora's Mask 3D began in June 2011 shortly after development on Ocarina of Time 3D wrapped up.

With any luck, this means we'll be getting Majora's Mask 'Master Quest'. Feel free to post any new info in this thread as it comes to light.

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11/10/14, 23:00    Edited: 11/10/14, 23:49
 
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Stephen said:
Get better at the game then. Learn from your mistakes. Now you know the fairy moves around. This is crucial to the game's message of wasting your time.

Logic fail.

If you can't find the fairy (because it's moved) you don't know that it's moved. Alll you know is that you can't find it.

By the time you do find it and realise that it must have moved there, that knowledge can no longer help you.

Care to try again?

If you can reasonably argue why the game shouldn't be altered to be more enjoyable for others when your experience is left untouched then by all means do so.

Because if you fundementally change what the game is, you render the entire exercise pointless. You aren't playing Majora's Mask anymore. You're playing something else entirely. It'd be like telling someone how good Planet of the Apes is and how brilliant the twist at the end was. Then watching that person go to check it out for themselves...by watching the remake with Marky Mark .

I too find it unfortunate that some people are turned off by their experience of the game. I too would like more people to try and play it. But I want those people to play Majora's Mask. To have that same experience, that same connection that made the game so good for the people who originally played it. If you remove things that are critical to that creating that experience, then that doesn't happen.

Go back to Mario and the Super Guide. Whereas a 'proper' playthrough of the game will engender an appreciation of things like enemy placement, secrets and the general greatness of the overall level design, anyone using the Invincible Tanooki suit just breezes through all of that.They took the tourist route. They will never truly experience the game for what it actually is.

Like the trying to fit the Thing into the Batmobile, letting people play 'however they want' isn't automatically a good thing.
11/13/14, 00:31   
@Shadowlink

You know now right? You got better. Took a couple tries but you got there. Can't have you filthy casuals finding the fairy on your first go. Gotta earn the right. Gotta have the panic set in when you can't find the fairy and have to endure the world ending all for another crack at it. Great design. 10/10.

They can already play MM as is as Jargon pointed out on the N64, the GCN collector's disc or the Wii VC. This remake is a chance to change what didn't work. By the most clinical definition changing the fairy so it doesn't move is changing the game from Majora's Mask to something else. It's an alteration of the design. I don't believe letting people have another crack at something they used to have one shot at drastically undermines what MM is all about. It really doesn't.
11/13/14, 00:51   
Stephen said:
@Shadowlink

You know now right? You got better. Took a couple tries but you got there. Can't have you filthy casuals finding the fairy on your first go. Gotta earn the right. Gotta have the panic set in when you can't find the fairy and have to endure the world ending all for another crack at it. Great design. 10/10.

You aren't even making sense anymore. I sense you're trying to make a point, just without the logic or reason to back it up. None of what you have said applies exclusively to a Fairy that alternates between two locations as opposed to a stationary one.

As for the rest of your 'argument', if you do not understand why the passage of time matters in Majora's Mask, why being able to just rewind the clock at will destroys the fundemental core premise of the game, then you are beyond reason.

You might as well do away with the whole 3 day limit altogether at that point. It's meaningless, thanks to your suggested changes. Let the Moon just hang there for as long as it likes, never actually falling. No need to race the clock. No need for a sense of doom. No need to get involved with those people in the town, because, lets face it. Their problems really aren't that urgent or important.

Congratulations Stephen. You just put a hole in the Batmobile. Enjoy playing with it.
11/13/14, 01:08   
@Shadowlink

Let's imagine at some point they were developing this game and you really lost everything when you went back in time. After all, according to you the logic of the game is that you learn from your mistakes and have to redo it. Then someone, let's say it was Miyamoto said, you know, we should have a way to make it so you can save rupees at the bank, even though it goes against the logic of the game. Then someone said, you know, you shouldn't lose the bomb bag, even though it goes against the logic of the game. Applying your logic, Miyamoto would be dead wrong and fucking with the game's logic. Are you outraged that this happened?
11/13/14, 01:16   
@Jargon

I'm sorry, remind me again which mistakes led me to losing my rupees and bomb bag?
11/13/14, 01:22   
Edited: 11/13/14, 01:23
@Shadowlink

Your mistake was not beating the game in a single three day cycle. That's the premise of the game, that Link has three days to do it and if he fails he has to start over and try again. Why should he be able to keep his rupees and items? It goes completely against the game's logic, but some crazy person at Nintendo thought it was more important to make the game fun than to strictly adhere to that logic.
11/13/14, 01:25   
@Shadowlink

Lucky for you we have an original Batmobile right alongside this new one and if you dislike that as well you can always go back to your previous Batmobile that is just as you remember.
11/13/14, 01:28   
Edited: 11/13/14, 01:36
@Jargon
Please stop. That's the worst thing I've read yet. The game isn't out in your scenario, it's still being worked on, and by the time of release it'd be essentially cannon. It'd be a completely different story if Majora's Mask came out and said YOU KEEP YOUR ITEMS when you travel back in time, then the game does the complete opposite IN GAME because Miyamoto made that change at the end. Which isn't the case. Majora's Mask ignores the entire subject, IIRC, so there is no logic to it. What you keep is what you keep, what you don't is what you don't. It doesn't bother saying why, but it doesn't tell you these people breathe, either.

You guys are basically asking for save states at any point in time in time trial for Mario Kart. You run Lap 1 perfectly, you save. You run into a wall at the end of Lap 2, you reset to your Lap 1 save and try again. You do Lap 2 fine and save again. You hit the wall, you reset, you keep resetting until you get it right. It's not an option I want to see. I could completely ignore it, but then people are going against logic and not playing the game right because they don't want to suffer punishment for failure. They just want to retry it.

For the record, I'm also against developers selling "help content". You are supposed to be punished for time management in Majora's Mask. You aren't supposed to turn the stress of time into a second thought. Nothing to do with being a casual or wanting people to not enjoy a game. It's not Ocarina of Time, stop trying to make it.

-----------------------

Just so everyone is caught up to speed, once you learn the Song of Time you are told "The Goddess of Time is protecting you. If you play the Song of Time, she will aid you..." then Tatl says "Someboyd! Anbybody!!! Goddess of Time, help us please! We need more time!" You then see a flashback of the beginning of the game, Tatl mentions everything has "...started over" and then questions what you are and the instrument you have.
11/13/14, 01:29   
Edited: 11/13/14, 01:39
@missypissy

I'm just pointing out the folly of prioritizing adherence to a game's logic over fun. And make no mistake, the fact that you can store rupees at the bank and keep certain items clearly flies in the face of the game's logic. Suppose I woke up out of bed today, bought a really nice scarf and then accidentally killed a man driving home from the mall. If I had the ability to rewind time to the start of the day, I wouldn't get to keep the scarf!

Apparently deviations from the game's logic are fine so long as they were choices made in the year 2000? Well, it's not the year 2000 anymore and the people who are making the game now have a new opportunity to make those types of choices. I hope they come to the same conclusions as Stephen and I and make fixes.

Edit: If it took an hour to finish Lap 1 of a Mario Kart race, then damn sure I'd want to be able to save after Lap 1. As it is, Majora's Mask is like having to start over from the Mushroom Cup every time you play.
11/13/14, 01:38   
Edited: 11/13/14, 01:59
@Jargon

I actually wonder about the bank thing. The banker clearly marks Link with an invisible ink indicating how much he has in his account. So when he travels back his balance is preserved but the ruppees he put in are not. Link is doing the Zelda equivalent of Kiting. Some hero he is! Though I suppose if he saves the world he can set it all right eventually.
11/13/14, 01:43   
Edited: 11/13/14, 01:43
@Jargon

Err, why would failing to save the world within the time limit automatically mean that you lose your items? That’s nothing to do with the ‘logic’ of the game world. There is no logical rule that dictates such behaviour. That’s just an arbitrary condition you’ve announced.

Sort of like how losing your consumable items when you go back in time is arbitrary. Notice how I haven’t disagreed with Stephen on that suggested change?

Unfortunately for your argument, the lack of ability to just wind back the clock a few minutes and redo the event you screwed up isn’t an arbitrary decision. It ties directly into the passage of time. You know, the core mechanic of the game that you guys seem to think trashing is no big deal?
11/13/14, 01:46   
Shadowlink said:
@Jargon

Err, why would failing to save the world within the time limit automatically mean that you lose your items?

Because you're traveling back to a moment in time before you acquired those items. Is this really difficult to understand? If everything reverts to how it was, everything should revert to how it was. There's no explanation as to why some things are permanent, because no explanation would make any sense.

And hard saves can easily fit within the logic of the game. Suppose the developers want to make it so you can hard save at the end of any given day. Give Link a spell that allows him to travel back in time to that point, instead of only being able to travel back in time to that original kickoff point. If he can travel back to one point, it makes sense that he can travel back to another point, and now that is effectively the beginning of the cycle. The passage of time remains untrashed, it just begins from another point and you no longer have to do redo certain things unless you want to start over fresh from Day 1 later on.
11/13/14, 01:53   
Edited: 11/13/14, 01:54
@Jargon

Well, time travel isn't real...so there's absolutely no point making a de-facto statement like that. All you are showing me is you either didn't pay attention or you just didn't understand Majora's Mask. Literally Hour 1 of the game (first 3-day cycle) you are told that Link does not have control over time, the Goddess of Time does and only when Link plays the song will she help him. So, in your scenario, it'd be like you killing someone, buying a scarf, and then playing a song that gets the Goddess of Time to send you back to the morning. Maybe she lets you keep the scarf, maybe she doesn't. Don't know what her plans are, but if it's like Majora's Mask you'll keep the scarf but lose the kill and the money you pick up.

The rupees thing obviously flies in the face of game logic, but there's simply no way around it without making it dumb. It won't change, likely, in the remake so there's no use in talking about it.

A hardsave at any time goes against the idea that time is ever flowing. I have NO idea why people keep ignoring that I said Nintendo should let you save at any time, without any owl statue, but it needs to be a softsave that is removed on boot.
11/13/14, 02:03   
@missypissy

I'll accept that.

We have to keep these archaic design elements because the Goddess of Time said so.
11/13/14, 02:06   
Edited: 11/13/14, 02:07
@missypissy

That soft boot seems fair. Doesn't really change the game but allows you to pop in Smash Bros without risk of having to wait another 20 min to find an owl statue. A soft boot would keep the game's original premise while allowing it to better fit the play-in-spurts attitude of the 3DS.
11/13/14, 02:07   
@Jargon

You're taking those items back with you. Is this your first experience with time travel fiction? Have you ever seen Back to the Future? Does the hoverboard magically disappear because Marty is in the past now?

This isn't Terminator. You don't get sent back naked in a ball.

And the game's logic is that you're sent back to the point that you entered Termina. You aren't choosing the point you travel to at will.

Link doesn't have complete control over time. He never did. He can manipulate it to an extent. But he's still bound by the overall rules.


The question you have to ask yourself with each and every change you propose is: What's the point? Why was this included in the game in the first place?

If there's a specific design reason for it, a reason that's still relevant, it should be kept. If it's something that was done simply because of hardware limitations at the time (graphics), or because they didn't think of a better way to achieve the same result (Iron Boot switching in OoT), then change it.

What's the reason for the Fairy changing position? Stephen doesn't actually know.
What's the reason for losing your consumables? I can't think of one there either.
What's the reason for not being able to just do over the last couple of minutes of the game? Because that goes against the entire core mechanic of said game.

Verdict? Change, Change, Leave the hell alone.


missypissy said:

A hardsave at any time goes against the idea that time is ever flowing. I have NO idea why people keep ignoring that I said Nintendo should let you save at any time, without any owl statue, but it needs to be a softsave that is removed on boot.

I've suggested that too. They still think a hard save anywhere option 'fixes' the game somehow.

Stephen still hasn't explained why he needs this option if he doesn't intend to exploit it.

It's hard to take him seriously as long as that remains the case.
11/13/14, 02:12   
Edited: 11/13/14, 02:16
@missypissy

If you're just going to write it off as Goddess discretion then she could decide anything she wants. She's omnipotent! If you beat a dungeon, why doesn't she help you out by having it remain beaten? While we're at it, why does she have to bring you back to that exact moment everytime? No logic is necessary when divine intervention is involved.

I don't see how being able to change the point in time that you can travel back to changes time being ever flowing. It flows just as it did before.
11/13/14, 02:15   
Edited: 11/13/14, 02:20
@Shadowlink

Why does a change have to be for my benefit specifically? Why keep the fairy in one spot? You know it moves, what's your angle?

I think that the game should be made better so more people can enjoy it.

Like I said, if someone wants to 'exploit' the game by getting another crack at a section without doing a bunch of stuff over again I really don't see an issue with that. It doesn't need to impact my experience whatsoever.
11/13/14, 02:21   
@Stephen

How do I know it moves?

I'm looking for something. I can't find it. What's the logical conclusion?

A) That it's location is arbitrarily and randomly changing despite absolutely no indication that this would be the case.
B) That I just haven't looked in the right spot. Best find some places where I haven't checked yet.

The change isn't for your benefit, but if YOU are arguing that it needs to be 'fixed' then YOU need to explain what the problem is with the original setup, why it is that YOU think it's broken.

I've explained why I think the fairy thing causes a problem. Why fixing it in one place makes more sense. You have yet to explain why the change to the save system is required. You have yet to explain what problem is actually being solved. And no,, the inability of people to exploit the current system does not count as an actual problem.
11/13/14, 02:29   
@Shadowlink

Nothing is "required". But it would make the game more fun for more people. The problem is having to redo shit, as Stephen has been explaining from the beginning. You're being needlessly thick here.

Obviously, you don't view it as a problem. That's not a matter of logic and reasoning, though. It's a matter of taste.
11/13/14, 02:32   
Edited: 11/13/14, 02:33
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