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Are all genres created equal? [roundtable]
 
I've been thinking about the controversy over Retro making Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze (which really sounds like a frozen drink you can get for a limited time at Dunkin Donuts) instead of making Metroid Prime 4 or some other epic. Part of the disappointment is definitely over the fact that the Wii U already has a decent amount of 2D platformers on the way, but I also think that there's just a general feeling that a company of Retro's talents should be putting their skills towards something more worthy of their time.

Of course, in order for this to make sense, there has to be some sort of hierarchy of genres. And I think that is born out in the way different types of games are received. Genres like FPS, 3D action/adventure, RPG, etc. just seem to automatically be considered to be of a different stock than genres like puzzle, SHMUP, 2D platformers, etc. These "lesser" genres often have a much lower ceiling when it comes to review scores. It says a lot that Ikaruga, considered by many to be the pinnacle of the SHMUP genre, is sitting around 85 on Gamerankings. Meanwhile, the "epic" genres are the ones that fans salivate over and that dominate GOTY voting.

This seems kind of strange to me. In the end, video games basically come to down to the enjoyment you get playing them. I understand that these epic games require more resources and therefore more advertising and hype than the smaller games. And it's true they often have more variety and more complexity. But in the end, the question is the quality of my time with the game. If a game like Dr. Mario, which I've spent several hundreds of hours playing competitively, gives me more enjoyment over the course of my life than even the most awe-inspiring epic, then Dr. Mario has just as much of a stake at the top of the gaming totem pole as something like Ocarina of Time.

Variety is the spice of life, so of course I want as many different types of experiences as possible. But I'm tired of certain experiences being treated like second class citizens. The best games are the best games. Just like the simplicity of a one on one game tennis can be just as great as the strategy and complexity of 11 on 11 football, even the most simple game can be as great as any other.

Do you guys agree? Are there certain genres that you think are more worthy than others?

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07/20/13, 02:13  
 
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Didnt read any of the thread yet but my answer is no.

Sports games are not equal to anything, sorry.
07/20/13, 23:35   
carlosrox said:
Didnt read any of the thread yet but my answer is no.

Sports games are not equal to anything, sorry.

Kirby's Dream Course begs to differ.
07/20/13, 23:36   
TheBigG753 said:
and adding diversity to the overall lineup is something that Retro should be doing to help bring in a new audience (similar to Rare's role when they were a Nintendo 2nd party)

I dunno, Rare kind of did some of both. Retro kind of does some of both too, it's just that they only make 2 games a generation.

Xbob42 said:
Kirby's Dream Course begs to differ.

Why do we ever argue? We're basically soulmates.
07/21/13, 00:04   
Edited: 07/21/13, 00:04
That game is not the same as a Madden game, just like Mario Kart is nothing like Forza. C'mon.
07/21/13, 01:10   
@Zero

Yeah, I just meant in general Rare filled some big gaps in Nintendo's lineup, not that it was all that they did. I think because Retro is still (by all accounts) a one-game-at-a-time studio, any time they release a game it's a big deal; and I think that's why there ends up being so much frustration/disappointment when it gets announced that they aren't working on something new. Personally, I'm not at all disappointed with Retro making a new DKC, but I understand why some people did get frustrated during E3. Still, I don't think that warrants dismissing DKC as a product, which I've unfortunately read quite a bit of.
07/21/13, 04:04   
I see this way, right now I'm excited for the PS4, but if Sony's line-up was only one genre (be it platformer, FPS, RPG, racing, sports, fighting, what-have-you) I really doubt that I would care. Who wants to play only one specific kind of game and not have anything else available?

@TheBigG753
Unfortunately I do think "anyone" could have made a decent DKC game. After playing DKCR in it's entirety on the 3DS I don't see anything really that special about it. Sure it has (perhaps) slightly above average graphics/art-design/animation than most other games in it's genre, and there are a couple of levels that are unique and interesting (i.e.: the level with the waves crashing, and then level that is covered in smog until you clear it away with the giant fan), but in the end it's a 90's style 2-D mascot platformer and the history of video games is littered with dozens of such games (many of which are way way better: Super Mario World, Yoshi's Island, etc.). Any decent developer could look at all those games and take a few hint from their play books, add some slightly-modern-graphics and a couple gameplay twist, and there you go: decent 2-D platformer.

If they truly innovated on the formula, really turned it on it's head, that would be something else, but they didn't, Donkey Kong Country Returns is no Pac Man Championship Edition DX, not even close.
07/22/13, 02:23   
Edited: 07/22/13, 06:41
@deathly_hallows I'm going to strongly disagree. DKCR has some of the best design of any 2D platformer I've ever played, not just anyone could have made that game.
07/22/13, 02:29   
@deathly_hallows

Yea, you're in the extreme minority here methinks. Most agree it's a top notch platformer
07/22/13, 04:38   
@Jargon

I think it's telling his examples of better platformers are some of the best of all time, and made by Nintendo.

DKCR stands with those, not the Bubsy's and Aero the Acro-Bat's of the 90s
07/22/13, 04:52   
Edited: 07/22/13, 04:53
Some of the best games of all time come from the '90s. That is where one of the best genres of all time, the fighting genre, really got its start!

@Guillaume

Some of those '90s platformers were pretty good. Ever play Rocket Knight Adventures? Good stuff.
07/22/13, 05:01   
@Guillaume

But isn't that a nut that's been cracked?

Nintendo has a signature and well earned place at the throne.

However, modern takes have proven fresh and vital with titles such as Super Meat Boy, Rayman Origins, Cave Story, Outland, 'Splosion Man, etc. That's not even touching the dozens of indie titles have joined the fray.

There's no doubt that Nintendo rules the roust in this dept. But they don't necessarily stand alone anymore.
07/22/13, 05:19   
@New Forms

Super Meat Boy and Cave Story aren't indie titles?

Also I think you missed Guillaume's point.

Have you even played DKCR?
07/22/13, 05:21   
Edited: 07/22/13, 05:25
@deathly_hallows

I think one of Gui's old posts says it best:

Guillaume said:
Hahahaha, vindication! (For some thread probably over a year old)

If I had a dollar for every time someone assumed platformers are somehow easier to make than other types of games because they "look" simple

-@KynanPearson, Lead Multiplayer Level Designer at 343 Industries. Previously at Retro Studios where I worked on the Metroid Prime series and Donkey Kong Country Returns.
07/22/13, 05:56   
@Jargon

I have and it rocks.
07/22/13, 05:59   
Zero said:
@deathly_hallows I'm going to strongly disagree. DKCR has some of the best design of any 2D platformer I've ever played, not just anyone could have made that game.
I just don't think it's that amazing, maybe it's just me, I honestly don't see why it has to be Retro that has to make another Donkey Kong game, why couldn't it be Good-Feel, for example? I fee like Nintendo probably has a dozen developers with the pedigree to make platformers but only one Western dev who could make something in the vein of Metroid Prime.

Jargon said:
@deathly_hallows

Yea, you're in the extreme minority here methinks. Most agree it's a top notch platformer
Yeah probably, I think it's just average, it has it's moments but I don't think it's as good as many similar games on Wii. I definitely fee like it was a step down from the Prime series.
07/22/13, 06:35   
Edited: 07/22/13, 06:44
@deathly_hallows Well, a lot of people around here loved Wario and Kirby, and I've only played Kirby, which to me isn't even in the same league as DKCR, so I'm not sure that I'd want Good-Feel doing the sequel.

I'm sure Nintendo has a lot of developers who could make all kinds of great games, really, but Nintendo rarely sets them loose like that.
07/22/13, 06:50   
@Zero
Well I think they should consider letting their devs loose, Wii U needs more variety or genres, IMO, and the 3rd parties don't seem interested.
07/22/13, 07:04   
Ideally, I'd like a system to have a decent balance between meatier, lengthy adventurous experiences and games that focus more specifically on refined gameplay mechanics. It helps if each side has a share of titles from multiple genres, and if those genres are ones that appeal to me. For example, if a really amazing fighting game came out for a system, that wouldn't do anything for me personally because it's my least favorite genre. But if something like a really good platformer shooter or a sandbox game came out, I would be happy about that.
07/22/13, 09:12   
deathly_hallows said:
Unfortunately I do think "anyone" could have made a decent DKC game.

I agree, anyone could make a decent DKC game. Not an awesome one like Retro did.
07/22/13, 14:19   
deathly_hallows said:
Wii U needs more variety or genres, IMO

This I agree with 100%.
07/22/13, 16:40   
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