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Thoughts on game piracy and emulation [roundtable]
 
This is sort of a heated topic in the game community and while I recall a few posts briefly delving into discussing it, I don't think its ever had its own dedicated thread.

What do you think of game piracy? As defined by downloading a ROM online to play a game instead of purchasing it.

In short, it's always bugged me. Games are entertainment, they're a luxury. You're not exactly Jean Valjean stealing a loaf of bread to feed his family. That said, I think a case can be made for exceedingly rare or unlocalized games to live on through emulation. In some cases, this can give a work more publicity than it'd normally get.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing other opinions on this matter.

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07/23/16, 20:44  
 
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@X-pert74
@Pokefreak911
@Guillaume

Hey thanks, that's definitely some of it!
07/28/16, 14:35   
TriforceBun said:
Doesn't the public determine the value of something?

Personally I think the creator of something determines its value. The public determines if they accept that or not, but they can't touch the original value the creator has decided. That is up to him/her, not the public. The issue is, the public has decided they don't care what the creator says, hence piracy.
07/28/16, 17:42   
@J.K. Riki
I would more say that everyone assigns their own value to anything, it's just that if you want the product you have to agree with the developers view on the value of it. Which is why I find the whole 'pay-what-you-want' scheme that many developers are using these days incredibly interesting because it allows people to assign their own value and pay that.
07/28/16, 18:11   
@Pokefreak911

Right. Isn't that what I said? :)

I also like the pay what you want model. It would be terrific to live in a world where that was the norm and worked well! Ah, to dream. In the meantime, though, we do what we can. My book is on that model, for example, and while I still haven't even paid off what it cost to print, I'm happier offering it that way than a hard line price.
07/28/16, 19:03   
@J.K. Riki

No, the public (or rather, the market) decides on the value of something. The creator can think their thing is valued at....whatever...but that has no bearing on what the market says it is actually worth. And what the market decides it is worth, that is what it becomes. Capitalism, free market, yadda yadda.

Interesting side note: "yadda yadda" autocorrects to "eider eider." Who knew?

Also, for those against piracy of any sort? Here is my shameless plug.
07/28/16, 19:12   
Edited: 07/28/16, 19:15
@GameDadGrant

This is a neat take on the Loot Crate model, and one I would love to try out if I didn't have a large backlog and another kid on the way. But one of these days...!
07/28/16, 20:00   
@Guillaume
@Pokefreak911

All of that stuff does exist true but I think even considering all of that they are still miles ahead of other companies. Does anyone else let you automate your own refund for example?
07/28/16, 20:17   
What do you mean by "automate"?

Anyway, Steam being "miles ahead" of other companies is subjective. It depends on what you value. If you value refunds, sure. If you value your personal data being safe, Nintendo so far are the only ones whose security apparently hasn't been breached (or didn't flat out give out your data, as in Steam's case).

Personally I think Nintendo's doing fine. No, they're not the best in every area. But a) companies people often talk up aren't the best in every area either and b) in talking up those companies in order to diminish what Nintendo offers, people often distort facts or lie. Like, the "I buy my iOS apps once and transfer them from new phone to new phone forever" claims. It's not true. Apps disappear from the store all the time, and new versions of the OS make older apps unusable all the time.

I think we can have a better conversation about the strengths and weaknesses of various platforms compared to Nintendo if we stop painting a few beloved companies as infallible, and stop acting like Nintendo can do nothing right.
07/28/16, 21:21   
@Guillaume

You can issue your own refund if you meet the proper criteria of not having more than 2 hours played and own the title for less than 14 days. Automate was a poor choice of words.

I could be wrong but I seem to recall Nintendo being hacked not too long ago.

The point about phone content isn't that that stuff will never get left behind it is that you aren't expected to pay for all your apps that you have already paid for again. Something becoming obsolete or incompatible is just the nature of technology and forward progress. It's the same as most people don't expect full backwards compatibility with consoles because they understand that the old games don't work on the new platform because of how the technology changes. The expectation if they bought another piece of the same hardware and can download games that are meant to work on that device is very different. The point is that on other storefronts if the app works on your device it is available to be downloaded if you've already paid for it. No double dipping.

No company is infallible to be sure but somebody has to be leading the pack. It's somewhat hard though not to paint these other companies as that far ahead of Nintendo though when Nintendo is failing some of the most basic things of digital sales. Aside from your point on security though I honestly don't see any other way Nintendo's digital sales could be talked up. That's not to say they shouldn't, but I just don't see it.
07/28/16, 21:44   
Edited: 07/28/16, 21:49
Well Nintendo did exactly what you're saying: they let you transfer all your purchases from old hardware to newer compatible hardware. Hop into Wii mode and it's all there.

Unless you're saying you should be able to download the NES games you bought on Wii, on your 3DS. But that's a completely different platform, and not even Apple just gives you your iOS games when they come out on Apple TV. In some cases you get them free, yes. In other cases you double dip. It's up to the developer. It's not that different from Nintendo allowing Wii U and 3DS devs to offer cross purchases. Seems to me like while not ahead of the curve, Nintendo is not behind the curve on this one. They're right in the curve next to Apple.

Plus, when talking Apple development, the business model is usually microtransactions. "Giving" you another version of a game, if you ever paid for it in the first place, is just a strategy to extract money from you at some point. It makes business sense. In the case of paid games without microtransactions? That model doesn't make sense.

Sony has more titles that are cross-purchase across PS4 and Vita (or used to, when they were still trying to make Vita happen), AND gave the Vita pretty good backwards compatibility. But not all the PSOne classics available for PSP are available for Vita, whether you'd mind paying for them again or no. And their business model seemed to be "we'll make money off memory cards". So again, that model makes less sense for Nintendo who uses generic SD cards. And Sony's model failed them.

edit - I guess my main point is: no company is doing cross-purchases out of the goodness of their heart. They've all got an ulterior motive that usually goes beyond just "treating customers right so they buy more games/apps", although I'm sure they hope for that. For Apple, they sell you expensive devices they make money off of, and putting apps on all of them means more revenu through adds and microtransactions. For Sony, it was a move to make Vita huge in the way the PSP was not, and to sell you proprietary memory cards. For Xbox, it's an attempt to bring back lost customers while also padding out their online store.

Nintendo isn't selling us memory cards, isn't advertising through games, isn't doing microtransactions in most cases. Their way to make money off the VC is to have customers pay for games the old-fashioned way.
07/28/16, 22:32   
Edited: 07/28/16, 23:06
@Guillaume

It's there but you lose access to that content on your Wii which is the point. If I traveled a lot and had two Wii Us set up at different locations and I wanted access to my content Nintendo's stance is 'buy it all again'. Similarly if I want to play Punch-Out on my 3DS I am expected to buy it again despite owning the game a couple times already in various formats.

Apple may do something different with games, I don't play them on my Apple TV, but for every other piece of content like movies, tv shows, music it all carries over and it carries over seamlessly. Games are a bit different and when you get in to current phone games we are talking about totally different hardware I believe so it's getting the game running all over again. VC games are just ROMs that get emulated and while the emulator may change the actual content you are accessing is the same. To Nintendo's credit they did offer an upgrade option to ameliorate that but they still tried to charge it on a game by game basis. And you still don't own the content. Your system does.

I think you're reading in to things with microtransactions though. I know for example that the iPad can emulate any app on the iPhone regardless if it has been optimized for the iPad. The nature of the platform is just that all content flows between the two (well actually there used to be iPad only apps due to extra power but I don't know if that's still the case). That's no doubt a nice bonus for many devs but the actual reasons are more just standardization and what not. And again I must reiterate that there's a distinction that has to be made between emulating 30 year old ROMs and modern apps that run on modern phones. It's worlds of complexity apart.
07/28/16, 23:06   
Sony kind of reeled things in and only let you have 2 portables or 2 PS3s (and I assume 2 PS4s) associated to your PSN account. Basically Nintendo lets you share account between one less piece of hardware than Sony does.

Not a huge difference, seriously.

And the more I think about Apple (or Android), the more I think it's a silly comparison. Beyond the microtransaction model, beyond the advertising money, beyond the fact that your iPhones cost you $500+ upfront or are subsidized… often the reason you get free stuff on your phone is that someone else is paying.

If the NX tracks your Web search history, your movements, your shopping habits, etc., and is a device that gets annual upgrades and can be subsidized by phone service providers, maybe we'll get free updates for our VC purchases. Until then, either Nintendo will stick with what they're doing currently or find some other source of revenue.
07/28/16, 23:27   
Edited: 07/28/16, 23:27
@Guillaume

Maybe it was different on PS3 but on PS4 you're allowed 1 offline copy for unlimited access on your home system and I think an unlimited amount of other systems when connected online.

Anyway, the specifics don't matter as much as the fact that Nintendo could be doing a lot more to make the VC and their digital offerings in general more compelling to users. And sure, you could make that argument about any storefront but Nintendo is the one who treats their customers the worst in terms of freedom and value. Let's not forget it was only recently they stopped requiring police reports in events of stolen consoles. All of that combines to make it less attractive to be their customer and just emulate it on your own terms instead.
07/28/16, 23:42   
Edited: 07/28/16, 23:43
@TriforceBun

Cool, man! We shall be ready when you are!
07/28/16, 23:52   
I haven't forgotten, it was like three years ago.

OTOH, it was 3 years ago.

Let's agree to disagree. To me it sounds a bit like justification for not paying when you have the means to do so. If $5 is too much to pay for NES Zelda on 3DS then by all means play your PSN+ copy of Syphon Filter on Vita if it's the better value. If playing NES Zelda on 3DS is more attractive, then I guess being a Nintendo customer is more attractive than you let on.
07/28/16, 23:55   
@Guillaume

I got The Legend of Zelda on my 3DS for free.

EDIT: I also got all of these on my 3DS for free:

Balloon Fight
Donkey Kong
Donkey Kong Jr.
Ice Climber
Mario Bros.
Metroid
Punch-Out!!
Super Mario Bros.
Super Mario Bros. The Lost Levels
Super Mario Bros. 2
Zelda II: The Adventure of Link
Yoshi
Wrecking Crew

Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
F-Zero: Maximum Velocity
Kirby and the Amazing Mirror
Mario Kart: Super Circuit
Mario vs. Donkey Kong
Metroid Fusion
Wario Land 4
WarioWare
Yoshi's Island
The Legend of Zelda: Minish Cap

Metroid II: Return of Samus
Super Mario Land 2: Six Golden Coins


I also got Metroid Fusion on my Wii U without paying, as well as Super Punch-Out!!. And of course, I was able to play all my old DS games (and DSiWare) on my 3DS with no hassle. Same with my Wii and WiiWare games on Wii U.

Also, I'm pretty sure I was also able to get the 3D Classics versions of Excitebike, Kirby's Adventure, Urban Champion, Kid Icarus and Xevious all for free, too.
07/29/16, 00:00   
Edited: 07/29/16, 00:09
@Guillaume

It's not about that so much as it is just personal value of things. I just can't feel good about spending another $5 on Punch Out on 3DS when I already own the game. I just can't. Regardless of how much I may want to play Punch-Out at that specific moment I just would feel like too much of a sucker.

@GameDadGrant

I guess those are technically free but only in the sense that you didn't have to pay more for them. They were at the expense of having jumped on a system that had something like a 30% permanent price drop though. You could make the argument that PS+ and Xbox Live give you lots of free games too but really you've already exchanged some money to get them.
07/29/16, 00:04   
Edited: 07/29/16, 00:15
@Stephen

Not all of those were Ambassador Program titles. Punch-Out!! for example.
07/29/16, 04:58   
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