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GamerGate Explained!!! [locked]
 
It's this thing on the Internet.

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09/13/14, 05:42    Locked 01/04/16, 01:39
 
   
 
Ah yeah totally forgot about that part. Bond is scum.
11/09/15, 00:44   
Jargon said:
@TriforceBun

Is it wrong to cheat on someone? Sometimes. Usually, probably. But that's a private matter between her and her significant other that is none of my business. And also we humans aren't perfect and do things that are wrong. I don't think someone should be condemned as gross based solely on that (which is fairly common, particularly among unmarried people). Forgiveness and all.

I don't think that logic really works. Change it to something else, like stealing. Person A steals something from Person B. Neither of those people are you, so it's none of your business. Does that mean that Person A's behaviour can't be condemned? That everyone who wasn't actually a vitcim of the theft should just ignore it?

About the only difference between those situations is one act is against the law and one isn't. And that really just comes down to how much we let our moral codes influence our laws in society. In certain parts of the world, cheating absolutely is a crime.

(Not saying it should be a crime in the west, just pointing out that these things are fairly arbitrary.)
11/09/15, 00:52   
Edited: 11/09/15, 00:52
@r_hjort

Sure. I'd say it's a good example of why sleeping around is a bad idea because things like this happen, because human beings are brash, judgmental monsters (myself included). This is not new, nor should it be a surprise. So... it seems to me that when something like this happens, it showcases a very valid reason why not to act in that way. IF, of course, you don't want things like this to happen. If you don't CARE, well, hey, more power to you. Do whatever you want. But to get long-term angry when people act like human beings have acted for hundreds of thousands of years seems weird to me. Again, this isn't a new thing. Why expect something different? On the other hand, we control at least ourselves, so we can make an attempt to do better ourselves. Not someone else do better, but us as individuals. Because honestly they have their free will and we have ours. That's not condoning their actions, but merely not being angered by it all. Anger really doesn't help anybody. We can use it to springboard positive action, but we could do positive things without it just the same. We use that as an excuse/rationalization. Perfect example: The people making the threats are doing so out of anger. If they let go of that, there would be no reason to threaten anyone.

It's a rather complicated topic, but my point was just that sleeping around seems like a bad plan to me based on everything I've experienced in my life, including this instance. I've never seen much lasting good come out of it, minus perhaps a cheap personal thrill, and consistently seen it return very, very bad things. That leads me to view this as another example in the "con" column of the pros and cons list of having sex with lots of random people. Maybe it doesn't for others, and that's fine by me. Just my observation.

Jargon said:


So much for "judge not, lest ye be judged"

It was more of an observation of reality than a judgement, but yeah, pretty much. I'm not going to tell whoever this person is what to do or not do, but I think a lesson could definitely be learned here anyway. Maybe prevent some pain down the road for someone who is observing this. Of course, we're not very good at learning from other people's mistakes, are we? Otherwise we'd have become perfect long ago, and not keep making the same mistakes every single generation. (Myself included.) Yet here we are. (Myself included.)

I'll accept the response, because I would be totally dishonest if I said I didn't have some dark part of me that was judging her for doing what she did. I'm not happy about that part, but it's down in there, and I know it. Just being honest.

ALL THAT SAID...


There's a lot of text here since my last comment, so I will politely bow out of the discussion. Take that for what you will. My reasoning is I have writing to do for NaNoWriMo and a wife to have dinner with and, like NinSage, I should probably have just kept quiet in the first place, but, also like NinSage, I felt a compulsion to try to add something where so many people were so angry and bitter. An attempt to shoot for more understanding. I'm always open to PMs, though, if anyone wishes to discuss any of the things I said above further! :)

Have a great evening everyone!
11/09/15, 00:53   
@Shadowlink

Not all stealing is wrong either. If someone is caught stealing, they have an opportunity to explain why what they did might not have been so bad and receive leniency or even outright acquittal (necessity defense, duress, etc.) The difference between stealing and infidelity is that the facts that are going to determine how wrong it is are inherently private. No one should have to air those things in public. That's a big part of why it's no longer a crime in many places.
11/09/15, 01:00   
Anger (or at least well directed anger) at people "acting like human beings have acted for thousands of years" is precisely how we make a better world. For instance, for thousands of years a woman's place was below a man's, and anger at this situation has lead to increased women's rights and moving closer to true equality. That's just one example but I'd hope most of us could come up with many more examples of how fighting against history has lead to better situations for many people. "This is just how it is" is probably the worst argument for not fighting against something bad, ever.

I wager most of us don't actually know how people have acted for thousands of years though, doubly so if we look outside of Western history.
11/09/15, 01:03   
Edited: 11/09/15, 01:05
@Jargon

Except, here it is *has* been made public. You can't exactly turn around and stop people from judging at that point. That ship has already sailed.
11/09/15, 01:15   
@Shadowlink

If we judge her as gross, which is what the guy intended when he made his post, then we're encouraging more people to do that kind of thing. We should be discouraging it, by criticizing him and not playing into his hands.

Plus as far as I know we've only heard one side of the story and we shouldn't be making judgments based on that. And we shouldn't call on her to explain her side because, again, it should be private.
11/09/15, 01:19   
Well... GamerGate is clearly the gift that keeps on giving. What a neverending shit show. Maybe I was wrong when I called for the Tropes Thread to be locked. All that happened is that the rest of Negative World became the bastard sons of the Tropes thread.

Guys, let's get one thing straight: I love you guys. I consider you friends. All of you.

Except Shadowlink. I hate Shadowlink.

Seriously. I've contributed to Zero's website for free, even after being scouted by other websites that offered me money, because he's my friend. And I don't agree with him quite a lot of the time. In fact, I think he's probably the guy who infuriates me the most in these threads, to be honest. And we're more or less on the same side.

I contributed to T-Bun's Kickstarter, not because I believed in the project - though I do - but because I'm his friend and I want him to succeed. Chase your dreams, dude.

I show up every now and then and do skits and stuff on NinSage's podcast. If I wasn't his friend, I'd just ignore it or go somewhere else. Or bitch at him during the taping or whatever.

I sneak around Jargon's windows at night and watch him in the shower and stream the videos to Periscope. He has 24,000 likes, most of them prisoners. Would someone other than a friend introduce Jargon to so many new friends? Some of them are up for parole just this week!

All that friendliness has gotta add up to something. And I think it does add up to something: Real friendships.

So if there's a worry that we're all at each others throats or that this kind of talk is going to prevent any of you from coming back to Negative World or whatever - that it's going to break up the band - let's have some perspective.

On top of that, I actually don't feel very engaged with most of these controversial topics. I don't actually care about GamerGate or Anita Sarkeesian, apart from the obvious fact that anyone who harasses someone is lower than a cockroach. But in most cases, if I have a "side", I can sometimes see some worthwhile points of view from the opposition. If I challenge an opinion, like I've done with NinSage and T-Bun, it's not because I want to rub your face in the dirt or kick you in the teeth. I just want to hear your thoughts or make a point about what you've said. I'm not trying to hurt NinSage by pointing out that he has a pattern of halfway engaging in debates. And while I'm sorry, in a way, that it might have caused him to spend a bunch of time having to defend himself, I'm impressed with most of the points he made in his recent post. Not all of them, but many of them. And I'm happy to see that kind of thinking being openly expressed, here.

With T-Bun, I have to say I didn't feel like I was on the attack. He characterized it as three people ganging up on him, but my post was really just looking for clarity on calling Zoe gross. You know, full disclosure, I think she's sorta gross, too, primarily because of her alleged promiscuity, which I have religious/moral objections about. But I also recognize that it's none of my business what she gets up to in the sack, that it probably never should have been publicized (though there's some nuance there, considering that guy has as much right to whine on the Internet as anyone else) and that it'd be ridiculous if the requirement for a biopic is that you have to meet Kris Wright's exacting personal moral convictions. Moreover, I have male friends who are sluttier than Zoe Quinn, so what's my standard, here? You can sleep around and be my pal but you can't sleep around and be the subject of a movie. Things fall apart.

Anyway, T-Bun said this:

The Bun said:
I don't know what you guys want me to say; I've seen her tweets back in the day and she comes across to me as obnoxious. I also think it's horrible to cheat on your significant other, even if that significant other sucks in some other way.

That's all you need to say. I wasn't looking for a dissertation. Lord knows I've read enough column inches about Zoe Quinn to last a lifetime.

So... in conclusion, I never did get that Palutena Amiibo and that sucks. And I hate Shadowlink. But let's not make these arguments more important than they are. None of us are going to change the state of the world by arguing on Negative World. We can afford to let some things slide.
11/09/15, 01:31   
Edited: 11/09/15, 01:34
One of the things you guys should probably understand is that I DO take these things more seriously than some of you, in large part because I'm now an indie developer and it is becoming increasingly clear to me that if you are an indie developer with opinions, especially "socially justice" type opinions, you are opening yourself up to potentially a lot of damage from these kind of angry, targeted hate mobs. I'm "lucky" to be a straight white dude which kind of protects me a bit, but then again when Phil Fish went to Zoe Quinn's defense they instantly hacked his servers and stole a bunch of information from him. Straight white dudes aren't necessarily immune to this stuff.

Honestly, if you're sitting on the outskirts of this stuff you probably don't know how bad it gets. They have utterly tried to destroy people. They contact employers and send them out of context shit people said years ago (and me being a teacher, that's scary.) They have swatted people (calling in fake scenarios to police to get them to show up guns drawn at people's homes.) They find the contact information of significant others and spouses and harass them too. They search down the friends of friends of their targets, which... could make me a target, because I'm friends with lots of people who are friends with Zoe Quinn, among others.

So I mean if you're never going to be part of the indie dev industry it is fine to sit back and say "why should we really care that much?" and I get it, it's just drama at that point. But for me it is real harassment that exists in a space that I'm entering, and it could have real repercussions for myself and the people around me. Hell, it could have real repercussions for this website. I've actually had to have the "if things get bad they might go at you too" talk with Shirley, and the fact that I had to have that talk with this wonderful person completely unrelated to any of this other than she is dating a guy in the wrong space just kind of sickens me. Like, seriously, what the fuck? Why is this even a thing now?

This is also why when people stroll up and are like "yeah but why don't we get the Gamergate perspective too?" I just kind of want to be like... are you serious? These people have done so much damage and have created a culture of fear of becoming one of their targets. They sort of gave up the right to have a place at the adult discussion table on ethics long ago.
11/09/15, 01:48   
Edited: 11/09/15, 01:52
@Jargon

We're encouraging more people to do what kind of thing? Air dirty laundry? Isn't that choice up to him though? It's his laundry to air (partially.)

As for hearing one side of the story, yes, she doesn't have to air her side. That's *her* choice. But with that comes the consequence of people judging soley by the information that *is* public. You can't expect people not to judge at all in that scenario.

I mean maybe the guy was a douchebag and beat her every day. And she's too afraid to come forward with that. That's fair. But it's just as possible that everything said was true, and she has no excuse. But that uncertainty shouldn't automatically entitle her to a free pass from judgement from anybody. Individual people will make that call for themselves.

You want to give her the benefit of the doubt? That's cool. Other people want to judge her based on the info that they have? That's cool too. But neither approach is more valid than the other given what is known.


I personally...don't really care. Either one of them could be in the wrong. They both could be terrible goddamn people. I didn't know who Zoe Quinn was before this clusterfuck. I can't even remember the other dude's name. These people mean nothing to me. I will likely never play Quinn's games or read reviews about her games, just like I won't read reviews or play 95% (or more) of every other game out there.

And as for 'Ethics in games journalism' (I'm told that this is what it's about? ), that means as much to me as ethics in restaurant reviews. It's such a piddly irrelevant area in the grand scheme of things. I use reviews to guide me towards things that might be to my taste. But the ultimate decision on whether or not I take the plunge is up to me. Whether someone took a big bag of cash or got their rocks off in exchange for a favourable review doesn't really factor that much into my decision- Because I'm going to be looking at reviews from EVERYWHERE. The noise will get filtered out.

And if I do err and end up with a dud? So be it. That's on me. I'm not going to go screaming at some random reviewer on the internet about it.

EDIT: I hate you too Kris.
11/09/15, 01:52   
Edited: 11/09/15, 01:55
@Shadowlink

He has the right to do it, but I don't think people should go telling everyone on the internet about their private relationships, even if they feel slighted. And I do think people should not judge others without all the information. I would argue that my approach is more valid because it's impossible that I will incorrectly judge someone as a flawed human being based on one side of the story, whereas someone who makes judgments without all the information will almost certainly eventually make an incorrect judgment, which is unfair to that person. Particularly given that there is nothing gained from judging someone you don't know as a flawed human being. And if you know Zoe Quinn, you have a lot more to go on than just a blog post.

Now I acknowledge people are going to do all of these things even if they are frowned up. Angry people are going to make bad decisions. People are going to judge without enough information. But I still think we should strive for better.
11/09/15, 02:05   
@Shadowlink @Jargon He didn't just get on the Internet and spout stuff about a woman who wronged him though. He has actually admitted to specifically choosing to present it in an overly dramatic way so that it would go viral, and he then disseminated it across several sources, including boards he knew already disliked her and would make a huge deal out of it and spread it further, because he wanted to damage her career. This isn't speculation, he has stated that this is what he did and his intent in doing so, and the reason he felt ok publicly stating this is he knew that the people on his side would not look down on him but would actually congratulate him for this. Even if trying to damage someone's career over them cheating were somehow justified, the problem is, there is literally no way to just damage a woman's career by spreading her sex life across the Internet and NOT have that lead to mountains of harassment. He might not have anticipated exactly how huge it got, but he had to have known it would get bad if, as he planned, it exploded. And then it did, and it got bad. Shocking.

And I do fear that there will be copycats. And OF COURSE it will always be sexist, because frankly, no one would have given a shit if a woman tried to make a big deal out of her game developer boyfriend fucking other women. There is no faulty "fuck your way to the top" narrative there, for one. And of course people just judge women more harshly for sex, period.
11/09/15, 02:12   
Edited: 11/09/15, 02:18
@Jargon

You do realise that you *just* judged someone for airing their private relationship on the internet?

I just think it's a little bit odd to run around judging if people are good or bad...for judging if people are good or bad. Your personal views aren't really anymore valid than theirs. Using your approach, if you're going to give one side the blanket benefit of the doubt and they turn out to be 100% guilty, then you've 'hurt' the other side by denying them any credibility.


Again, if you apply your logic to the stealing scenario. Following your reasoning, that means you have to let go anyone who steals based on the fact that they *might* have a valid reason- Even if they don't tell you what that reason is. But if you do that, and it turns out that they didn't have a valid reason...then it's the person that they stole from that has ultimately been hurt by your blanket pardon.

I know, private vs public. Again though, in Zoe's case that ship has sailed.
11/09/15, 02:30   
Edited: 11/09/15, 02:31
@Zero

On the flipside, I did an AMA with r/KotakuInAction a few months ago to get more Greenlight votes for Shapes of Gray, and everyone there was incredibly pleasant to talk to. Nobody deserves harassment regardless of their actions, but from what I've seen, the only people who receive it are the ones who look down on other people and "call them out" and stalk their hashtags to get into arguments... which you do, so you're right, you might actually be in danger. But there are more tactful ways to express your beliefs that won't make you any enemies. Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but you're also not going to change anyone's mind through the inflammatory tweets that I typically see from "social justice types."
11/09/15, 02:34   
@Shadowlink

Where have I judged the guy? I judged the action. Nowhere have I said the guy is a bad person or gross or anything. Nor have I said that about TBun for voicing his opinion on Zoe Quinn.

And I'm not denying him anything. He is not entitled to have me or anyone arbitrate his relationship. I haven't said that he's lying so his credibility has not been besmirched.

And I've already explained why stealing and infidelity are different, which you seem to acknowledge in your last sentence, while at the same ignoring my explanation as to why the ship hasn't "sailed" on respecting privacy.

I've made my points clear. You're free to disagree but I can safely say judging by your side of this conversation up to this point that nothing else you have to say warrants a response, so I don't plan on engaging further.
11/09/15, 02:43   
@Secret_Tunnel Well, no, sorry you're wrong there. Like, so seriously wrong that I wonder how you could possibly think this if you have even remotely been following Gamergate, which I am pretty sure you have? I can tell you about many Gamergate targets who got attention called to them simply for posting "social justice" type articles on gaming sites, or making "social justice" type comments in a review they wrote, or doing "social justice" type research, or being friends with "social justice" types and having weird conspiracy theories pop up around them, or simply by being part of "gamejournopros", or being associated with organizations and cons that Gamergate decided are all corrupt "social justice" groups, or simply being in a relationship with "social justice" types. Some of them didn't even know what Gamergate WAS until they Gamergate started pounding on their doorstep. Gamergate digs, and digs, and digs some more to find anyone that is doing things they don't like, or is associated with those doing things they don't like. You don't have to call attention to yourself to end up on their hit lists.

Of course they're nice to you when you show up with open arms, because A. they're looking for all of the legitimacy they can get and part of that is being friendly with game devs and B. you're not expressing "social justice" type opinions they don't like.

But by all means pretend that they only go after people who deserve it or whatever. The real world disagrees with you.

Incidentally I haven't visited the Gamergate hashtag in months. Most of my interactions with them nowadays come from responding to things they post on friend's of mine's comments... friends they are often stalking en masse. Some of them still stalk me but I've muted most of them at this point.
11/09/15, 03:01   
Edited: 11/09/15, 03:17
@Secret_Tunnel

I agree that a lot of progressive tactics are misguided and won't help to achieve the advancements in social justice that are desperately needed. But the very idea that our society needs to be more equal is met with a lot more hostility than you're letting on. You can make a lot of enemies without calling anyone white cishet scum.
11/09/15, 03:15   
Edited: 11/09/15, 03:16
Shadowlink said:
@Jargon

As for hearing one side of the story, yes, she doesn't have to air her side. That's *her* choice. But with that comes the consequence of people judging soley by the information that *is* public. You can't expect people not to judge at all in that scenario.

While I generally agree that the guy had every right to air his laundry, I do think it's reasonable to ask people not to demand Zoe Quinn "speak now or forever hold her peace" on those allegations. I mean, she's writing a book, so I assume her side of the story is coming. But I don't think we really ought to be paying too much attention to his allegations, anyway. My whole perspective on this was that, while it's certainly within his rights to be a whiner on the internet, at the end of the day all he's really done is whine. At best. At worst, he was a vindictive jilted shit who tried to slander an ex-girlfriend to amass a personal army and get his revenge. Either way, there's no upside in really paying attention to the guy, whether he was within his rights or not.

Me? He lost me the moment I saw he'd used fucking Roman numerals to break his little cry journal into chapters. Screw that. I'm not reading it.

I personally...don't really care. Either one of them could be in the wrong. They both could be terrible goddamn people. I didn't know who Zoe Quinn was before this clusterfuck. I can't even remember the other dude's name. These people mean nothing to me. I will likely never play Quinn's games or read reviews about her games, just like I won't read reviews or play 95% (or more) of every other game out there.

And as for 'Ethics in games journalism' (I'm told that this is what it's about? ), that means as much to me as ethics in restaurant reviews. It's such a piddly irrelevant area in the grand scheme of things. I use reviews to guide me towards things that might be to my taste. But the ultimate decision on whether or not I take the plunge is up to me. Whether someone took a big bag of cash or got their rocks off in exchange for a favourable review doesn't really factor that much into my decision- Because I'm going to be looking at reviews from EVERYWHERE. The noise will get filtered out.

Right on.

EDIT: Well, sorta. I do think gaming could use an actual decent, unbiased press and we don't really have that. But Rolling Stone writers were all bedding rock stars and groupies and stuff, too. Getting pictures and autographs. All that stuff. It's not like this is unique in the entertainment press.
11/09/15, 04:10   
Edited: 11/09/15, 04:17
Zero said:
Anger (or at least well directed anger) at people "acting like human beings have acted for thousands of years" is precisely how we make a better world.

Anger may spark the desire for change, but it is not, ever, what saw peaceful change through to the end. As Mark Twain said “Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured.”

There's also a wonderful Buddhist quote: “Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.”

Anger does not get things done, it eats you alive. It creates a cycle of hate that cannot end so long as you hold on to anger. It is hate that gets us into this mess in the first place, how do you expect an extension of hate to fix it? Pouring gasoline on a fire does not put the fire out.

There is a huge difference between caring (which does change the world for the better) and hating. Anger tricks you into believing you are doing the one while really you are doing the other. And it turns your heart to stone.
11/09/15, 04:24   
Zero said:
I'm now an indie developer and it is becoming increasingly clear to me that if you are an indie developer with opinions, especially "socially justice" type opinions, you are opening yourself up to potentially a lot of damage from these kind of angry, targeted hate mobs.

As an indie developer in the indie scene, do you think you would be at all ostracized by that community if you were even slightly critical of social progressives?
11/09/15, 07:50   
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