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OT: What would it take to get you to stop eating meat?
 
With the new David Foster Wallace movie coming out, there's been a lot of internet chattering about it and him. I am not very familiar with his work, only having watched the YouTube video of his brilliant graduation speech at Kenyon College. Curious to learn more, I decided to read his well known 2004 essay Consider the Lobster. In it, he doesn't explicitly argue that eating lobster as it is traditionally prepared (as fresh as possible, often boiled alive) is inhumane, but asks the reader to contemplate the possibility and to confront how we ignore the question or justify our behavior. It's a good read if you haven't read it, and not too long.

I love meat. I can hardly imagine my life without eating it. And I also happen to love some of the more morally questionable food choices. Lobster is my favorite food, foie gras is also high on the list. And of course, given what I know about the meat industry in the United States, almost all meat options seems rather morally questionable. I've faced these questions in moments of introspection, and I come up with some justifications. The ample suffering that would exist for animals even if humans weren't involved, like being hunted and eaten or, on the other side, starving to death. But usually I just resolve not to think about it any longer and go about my way.

In general, I try not to act morally superior to people (although perhaps some on this board will dispute that). Go back to any time in history and you'll find average, seemingly not-evil people who allowed, approved of, or even participated in actions that we now recognize as barbaric. I am not so proud to believe that I could never be seen as one such person centuries from now. In Consider the Lobster, Wallace raises the possibility that eating lobster and other meat could be looked back on in the future like human sacrifices of the Aztecs or Roman gladiator matches.

I can certainly imagine such a future. But what would it take to make that future happen, perhaps even in my lifetime? The first possible catalyst that comes to mind is some sort of advancements in understanding animal minds. Imagine if there were developed a way to communicate with animals and we were able to learn someway or another first hand from animals that their suffering was substantial and similar enough to what we understand as human suffering that we couldn't hide behind the fact that we don't really know if lobsters experience pain like we do.

Another catalyst could be a replacement for meat, some sort of genetic creation perhaps, that tastes exactly the same as meat but doesn't require killing a sentient being. People are quite suspicious of GMOs and would certainly be suspicious of this, but if it was thoroughly tested and tasted close enough that any difference could be attributed to the now ingrained suggestion that natural is better, I certainly think I would be on board and would stop eating the real thing.

Without something like that happening though, I'm afraid I don't have it in me to give it up or even to wrestle hard enough with the moral implications until I either come up with a satisfactory justification or just accept my behavior as immoral.

For meat-eaters like me, what's your thoughts? Could some development stop you or are you all in? For those vegetarians or vegans among us, what was it that pushed over the edge, assuming you weren't raised to not eat meat from birth?

Note: Let's try not to condemn each other's views. I think we can do it.

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08/18/15, 08:18    Edited: 08/18/15, 08:18
 
   
 
@Hinph

That is true indeed. Capitalism is incompatible with that type of future. If you ask me though, capitalism needs to die, and it will die at some point much like feudalism before it. Hopefully it is replaced with something more sensible like communism, and when I say communism I mean that in the true sense of the word of not having to worry about having to pay a mortgage because people have houses that are paid for by everyone. Imagine a life that (some) Native Americans have/had before columbus where people are not just left to die or are suddenly saddled with a crazy debt because they got sick and couldn't afford the medicine like it happens here so often.

@deathly_hallows

Then again humans also possess other vestigial features such an appendix, that doesn't mean we need it. Sure, we are able to eat meat if push comes to shove but that doesn't mean we have to as a species to survive, specially nowadays. It is entirely possible that in a few generations if enough people become vegetarians, they will be phased out. The first thing that comes to mind is lactose intolerance. Some tribes developed it because they were not shepherds and didn't have a need to develop that tolerance.

@Tranquilo

Eating animals as a principle is not inherently wrong, but rather the way in which animals are farmed for food is the problem. That causes great strain in our resources, and is harmful to the environment as well as our health because of the stress those animals are put through, which affects the meat we consume.

If we went back to hunting our own food we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.
08/19/15, 02:10   
Edited: 08/19/15, 02:16
@TriforceBun

Yeah, Maddox is awesome. Lou and I used to read his page constantly back then.
Nikki and I still joke around with the "women farting" stuff. Classic.

Did you get his "Alphabet of Manliness" book? Last hardcover book I read cover to cover.

@Guillaume

That Beef Tartar that you were served at La Noir would've been enough to get me off the Meat Wagon for a little while. Yech!

(I'm aware that "meat wagon" is actually something else, but whatever.)
08/19/15, 02:32   
Guillaume said:
Heh, I think we honestly see more people who loudly identify as "meat eaters" these days. They'll proclaim their love of bacon without you asking them anything. In some cases, it can get obnoxious.

Haha. Indeed. I'm already seeing a good bit of that in this thread.

@Secret_Tunnel

Gluten is really only bad for those that are truly intolerant of it. There's really no reason for the average person to be caught up, so to speak, in the gluten free propaganda. That being said, it is said that even for those that do not negatively react to gluten experience some intestinal permeability when consuming glutenous foods. And any amount of such can tax the body. I often struggle with whether or not we should even be eating grains. I at least try to make sure the grains I do eat are sprouted, as this allegedly releases more of their nutritional components, and aids in digestion. However, I believe moderation is the key for most everything.
08/19/15, 03:31   
Edited: 08/22/15, 16:42
"What would it take to get you to stop eating meat?"

My death. That's what it would take. I love meat too much.
08/19/15, 06:33   
Idk. If a doctor said something like "If you eat meat you're going to die" then I'd consider it.
08/19/15, 06:42   
@NoName

The gluten thing is terrible for people who seriously have complications due to it. I have a friend who suffers from gluten and dairy, and even the slightest wrong choice is a bathroom death sentence for her. No bueno. I feel terribly for her.

But those that cut gluten out for no reason are just silly.
08/19/15, 06:47   
To those saying nothing short of serious health problems (or even not that), would you really be unaffected if your beloved pet suddenly gained the ability to speak and said "hey, I've talked it over with the other animals and this just isn't cool, bro"? Yes, it's a ridiculous scenario, but the point of the thread is to question just what it would take, no matter how silly it might seem.
08/19/15, 07:00   
Edited: 08/19/15, 07:00
@Jargon

Health problems are infinitely more likely than Sudden Onset Sentience. Would you honestly think the other way around is more reasonable?

"I'll keep eating meat even if it kills me, but if animals start talking *then* I draw the line!"

I believe your question has been answered fairly.
08/19/15, 08:02   
Edited: 08/19/15, 08:02
@Shadowlink

Well, I'm under the impression that lots of experts in the scientific community think animals are sentient, even if it can't be definitively proven so it would more be sudden communication. But no, obviously I think health problems are more likely, it's just that seems like anyone would obviously give up meat under those circumstances so it doesn't tell you much.
08/19/15, 08:23   
@Jargon

Well if we can suddenly communicate with animals, we can also ask the carniverous animals out there if they'll suddenly stop hunting other animals for food too.

Should be an interesting exercise.
08/19/15, 08:32   
Edited: 08/19/15, 08:33
@Shadowlink

Personally, I don't judge my behavior based on what most other humans do let alone what puny brained animals do.
08/19/15, 08:41   
@Jargon

If that's the case, then surely it wouldn't matter what those puny brained animals had to say either.
08/19/15, 09:16   
@Shadowlink

Sure it would. The point isn't to get their ideas on how I should behave, but to understand their feelings and how they relate to the suffering that I can understand and want to diminish. Just like I would take what a child says about how he's feeling very seriously, even if I wouldn't value his input much on ethical questions.
08/19/15, 09:38   
First, I eat what I want, basically whatever I'm craving, I will devour at that moment in time.

Second, with that said, I've never been a 'huge' meat lover and as I have become older I eat less and less meat. Just something about eating meat really turns me off at times, plus I think it is all waay overpriced. I've only had lobster/crab legs, ect a couple times, when I was in my mid twenties. A couple people I was eating dinner with couldn't believe I've never tried either(this was at different occasions). I thought, finally, I'll get to experience what I've been missing for 20+ years. I wasn't impressed. I'm like 'Seriously, people love this stuff so much to blow $20+. Now, I didn't hate either, just thought there wasn't much taste and it all reminded me off edible rubber. I guess I'm lucky not to have been overjoyed by the expensive dishes.

I'm not looking for the links, but I've watched many shows that depict different animals out in the wild and in captivity that are shown, obviously mourning when their young ones, babies were killed and eaten by predators. Even before seeing these documentaries, I knew animals have feelings and they can be observed mourning, displaying happiness, ect. Even though animals cannot talk as humans do, they can communicate. Animals may not know of Einstein's different laws, the workings of the humans judicial system, ect, ect. Though to be honest, they are better off not being burdened by such things.

I do feel its wrong how society treats these animals on these farms. I'm not saying its wrong to eat meat, because I do believe in survival of the fittest motto, but I feel there can be more humane ways to go about running these farms or acquiring one's favorite protein, but unfortunately it all comes down to making a buck at any cost. Not only do we hurt those animals, we are hurting ourselves in the process.
08/19/15, 10:07   
@Jargon

I just think it's a little odd to construct a hypothetical scenario where an animal talks to you about how uncool they think it is that you enjoy eating them, whilst they chow down on their latest catch.

Bit of a mixed message.
08/19/15, 10:55   
@Shadowlink

Situation needs to be factored in to the discussion. Animals hunt and kill other animals because they need to survive and that is what their instincts drive them to do.

Humans by and large no longer hunt. We certainly think beyond our base instincts. We raise animals specifically to be food and we could just as easily do that with flora which may be even more beneficial. If a tiger doesn't hunt what is its alternative?

Talking animals is still a weird catalyst to choose though.
08/19/15, 12:35   
@Stephen

My exact scenario was tongue-in-cheek, but the basic idea is that I wonder how many people would still eat meet if they were unambiguously confronted with the notion that there's a huge amount of animal suffering going on, and given relatively recent developments in the scale of production, much much more than there was for the vast majority of human existence. I can somewhat get away saying that there's really no way to know what animals are really feeling, although Wallace makes some compelling arguments against that.

Add on to that an in your face comparison between the animals we eat and our beloved pets, and I'm curious if the most adamant meat eaters here are really sure they'd still be so adamant under those circumstances.
08/19/15, 13:27   
@Jargon I'd show my animal the videos of the 'herbivore' deer eating birds. Then, I'd lean in close and say "See this? All your buddies would do it too."
08/19/15, 13:46   
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