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OT: What would it take to get you to stop eating meat?
 
With the new David Foster Wallace movie coming out, there's been a lot of internet chattering about it and him. I am not very familiar with his work, only having watched the YouTube video of his brilliant graduation speech at Kenyon College. Curious to learn more, I decided to read his well known 2004 essay Consider the Lobster. In it, he doesn't explicitly argue that eating lobster as it is traditionally prepared (as fresh as possible, often boiled alive) is inhumane, but asks the reader to contemplate the possibility and to confront how we ignore the question or justify our behavior. It's a good read if you haven't read it, and not too long.

I love meat. I can hardly imagine my life without eating it. And I also happen to love some of the more morally questionable food choices. Lobster is my favorite food, foie gras is also high on the list. And of course, given what I know about the meat industry in the United States, almost all meat options seems rather morally questionable. I've faced these questions in moments of introspection, and I come up with some justifications. The ample suffering that would exist for animals even if humans weren't involved, like being hunted and eaten or, on the other side, starving to death. But usually I just resolve not to think about it any longer and go about my way.

In general, I try not to act morally superior to people (although perhaps some on this board will dispute that). Go back to any time in history and you'll find average, seemingly not-evil people who allowed, approved of, or even participated in actions that we now recognize as barbaric. I am not so proud to believe that I could never be seen as one such person centuries from now. In Consider the Lobster, Wallace raises the possibility that eating lobster and other meat could be looked back on in the future like human sacrifices of the Aztecs or Roman gladiator matches.

I can certainly imagine such a future. But what would it take to make that future happen, perhaps even in my lifetime? The first possible catalyst that comes to mind is some sort of advancements in understanding animal minds. Imagine if there were developed a way to communicate with animals and we were able to learn someway or another first hand from animals that their suffering was substantial and similar enough to what we understand as human suffering that we couldn't hide behind the fact that we don't really know if lobsters experience pain like we do.

Another catalyst could be a replacement for meat, some sort of genetic creation perhaps, that tastes exactly the same as meat but doesn't require killing a sentient being. People are quite suspicious of GMOs and would certainly be suspicious of this, but if it was thoroughly tested and tasted close enough that any difference could be attributed to the now ingrained suggestion that natural is better, I certainly think I would be on board and would stop eating the real thing.

Without something like that happening though, I'm afraid I don't have it in me to give it up or even to wrestle hard enough with the moral implications until I either come up with a satisfactory justification or just accept my behavior as immoral.

For meat-eaters like me, what's your thoughts? Could some development stop you or are you all in? For those vegetarians or vegans among us, what was it that pushed over the edge, assuming you weren't raised to not eat meat from birth?

Note: Let's try not to condemn each other's views. I think we can do it.

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08/18/15, 08:18    Edited: 08/18/15, 08:18
 
   
 
I don't think it'd take much to make me a vegetarian. My palate really doesn't appreciate fine dining or variety or skilled cooking any more than boring staples, so I'm perfectly happy just eating whatever's convenient and cheap: I'm like the opposite of a "foodie." And I'm all for reducing the consumption of meat for all the moral and environmental reasons stated above.

And I don't eat meat at breakfast and rarely do at lunch anymore: if I could find convenient alternatives to my three main dinner meals, then I'd practically already be a vegetarian.
(1) Italian sausage with my spaghetti
(2) Fish/chicken tenders with my rice and veggies
(3) Frozen burger patties (I'm sure I'll try veggie burgers soon)


Going without dairy would be a bit tougher. I eat a lot of cereal for breakfast and sometimes late night snacks, and milk is key to that. And while I'm only eating pizza once every couple months lately, it's hard to imagine I'd ever totally go without it.
08/18/15, 16:30   
What would it take for me to stop eating meat? I suppose if the doctor told me that one more cheeseburger was going to make me explode, I'd stop.

Really, whether putting Bologna on my sandwich makes me a bad person is not a question that keeps me up at night.

I actually don't eat that much meat. Certainly not every meal. My wife is a great cook and she makes a lot of meat-free meals. We have a pretty decent sized vegetable garden and get a lot of our meals from there. Still, a good steak, a pork chop done just right, fried chicken, sushi, fish tacos, all beef hot dogs, cheeseburgers, oysters on the half shell - I'm not giving that stuff up.
08/18/15, 16:44   
@TheOldManFromZelda Yeah well for every three you eat I'm going to breed four more and not eat them.

MATH.
08/18/15, 16:44   
Little by little, various studies chip away my desire to eat meat. Just recently I read about how we're headed towards food shortage if meat consumption continues on its current trend, and invariably these facts spring to mind whenever I'm grocery shopping.

But the best argument to turn to vegetarianism, honestly, would be finding more good vegetarian recipes. Taste still trumps morals.

Karen and I don't see a reason to ever go back to meat patties again now that we've found an excellent portobello burger recipe. And turns out our stir fry recipe works as well with tofu as it does with chicken.

Things like that help.
08/18/15, 16:55   
Edited: 08/18/15, 16:56
I love food too much to not include meat in my diet. So many tasty dishes just wouldn't be possible without it. I eat vegetarian one or two days per week because it's very healthy to do so, and i know all about alternative sources of protein. I don't think anything could make me cut out meat completely though.
08/18/15, 17:16   
I don't nessarily think there's anything inherently morally wrong with eating animals, but there is certainly an aspect of cruelty to it considering the ways that animals are raised and processed in the industrial farming machine. So my thoughts are eat less meat, and to find local, responsible sources for the meat that I do eat. What I try to avoid is stuff like McDonalds and cheap corporate grocery stores. It's probably not the ideal solution to the future of the human race, but I feel better about it.

One day we'll have food replicators that will produce instant roast turkeys from random base molecules, then it won't be an issue.
08/18/15, 17:18   
@Hinph

Are you talking about robot assembly? We are still a long way from that. And even if that does happen, that will do nothing to quell the real issue which is that a few people control the means of production like @Jargon mentioned. A few weeks ago I was just reading, or rather watching a documentary about what my countrymen have been going through back home, with one business man getting money loans from the IMF to buy land from the campesinos. If they refuse like they have been doing, they are killed. All to control the fertile land in the aguan valley which is currently being used to plant African palm oil. While that may be lucrative, not enough food is being farmed and people are starving as a result.

And of course if the campesinos request a loan from the IMF they are offered ridiculous interests that the aforementioned businessman doesn't have to pay. This shit is ridiculous. This is just one example in the way the US, or rather the same bankers and CEOs that pull the strings on the US government are of course the same people who are fucking with Hondurans, and doing similar things all over the world, like Greece for example, are also the ones screwing us over in the States. The worst part about it is that no one seems to connect the dots.

Ok, back to our regularly scheduled programming.
08/18/15, 17:30   
Oh, I'm a member of PETA. The People Eating Tasty Animals club.

I've tried, and maybe it's because I don't know how to best cook vegetables, but I can't do it. I don't eat a ton of red meat, but I do eat beef a couple of times a week and a lot of poultry and fish.

TheOldManFromZelda said:
For every animal you don't eat, I'm going to eat three.
Perfect. I'll match your ante there, Lou.
08/18/15, 17:32   
@warerare
I don't mean to sow doubt in you or criticize your decisions in any way, but depending on where we are talking about, 'free range' can mean anything from chickens frolicking in green meadows under a clear blue sky, to chickens who aren't technically caged, but many enough in small enough of an area to hardly be able to move anyway.

Maybe legislation keeps people from doing the latter sort of thing in the UK, and maybe you know exactly how the eggs you buy are produced, but in some cases 'free range' is more of a marketing term than a true description of the animals' way of living.

I think it's great that you try not to buy eggs from caged hens and all that, so I don't mean to say you should change your ways or anything, I just wanted to bring this up. The terminology thing.
08/18/15, 17:42   
In the UK Free range means they must have access to outdoors for 8 hours a day but I know the conditions are far from ideal. I think they have to have one access hole per 600 birds or so and they are still only given 1 square metre per 9 birds which really is inadequate but those cages are just too damn awful and the eggs are noticeably inferior as a result. I did get them from a local guy at one point paying him fairly cheap prices for a lot of eggs but he stopped looking after chickens for some reason so my supply dried up If I had a grassy area in my back garden I would love to have my own chicken run, I may still do it one day if I find a good way of keeping them on concrete or decking.
08/18/15, 18:29   
I love eating meat. I think beef jerky might be my favorite food. That said, if I had to actually kill and clean every animal I ate...I don't think I could eat meat anymore. Except maybe fish. There's kind of an "out of sight, out of mind" mentality for me (and most people, I imagine)--I'm aware of the troubles of the meat industry, buuut...honestly, not enough to cut meat out of my diet. I do avoid stuff like veal, though.

It's been mentioned here once but I think it's important to remember that we have canines for a reason. Humans are meant to eat animals.

TheOldManFromZelda said:
For every animal you don't eat, I'm going to eat three.
Haha, Maddox. He actually makes a pretty strong case for why vegetarianism isn't the ideal solution either.
08/18/15, 18:39   
NoName said:
But, I don't preach or even tell people unless asked. The old joke - "How do you know if there's a vegan in the room?" "They'll tell you." - doesn't apply to me.
Heh, I think we honestly see more people who loudly identify as "meat eaters" these days. They'll proclaim their love of bacon without you asking them anything. In some cases, it can get obnoxious.

TriforceBun said:
It's been mentioned here once but I think it's important to remember that we have canines for a reason. Humans are meant to eat animals.
No, canine do not mean we are "meant" to eat animals. First, evolutionary traits don't tell us what we're supposed to do. And second, if we were meant to eat meat, we'd have the digestive tract to go with those canines. Try eating your meat raw, see what's meant to happen.
08/18/15, 19:01   
Edited: 08/18/15, 19:03
@Guillaume
Well, I do like medium-rare steak...

"Meant" is sort of a semantic thing; either way, humans have always possessed canines for the purpose of meat-eating. It's up to people if they want to avoid meat, but it's a natural food for us. Protein is a pretty major part of a person's diet (although there are different ways of getting it).

And I think we technically could eat several meats raw if not for the bacteria (and the fact that most people just don't like the taste). After all, sushi is popular.
08/18/15, 19:25   
@Guillaume Same, granted I only know a couple vegetarians/vegans, but neither of them lord it over people like the reputation made me expect. More common is that we go out somewhere, they ask if _________ is vegan-friendly or whatever, and someone else busts their balls about it.

On the other hand, the bacon fanboys are unavoidable, both in the sense that there are so many of them and that they will corner you at a party and never shut the hell up about meat.
08/18/15, 19:29   
@nate38
It's because everyone thinks they're as funny as Ron Swanson.
08/18/15, 19:33   
Question for people who don't eat meat for health reasons: how do you feel about gluten and wheat products?

deathly_hallows said:
One day we'll have food replicators that will produce instant roast turkeys from random base molecules, then it won't be an issue.

We'll have food replicators that can produce instant roast turkeys shaped like a giant statue of Metal Gear REX. And hey, that day might be closer than we think.

r_hjort said:
@warerare
I don't mean to sow doubt in you or criticize your decisions in any way, but depending on where we are talking about, 'free range' can mean anything from chickens frolicking in green meadows under a clear blue sky, to chickens who aren't technically caged, but many enough in small enough of an area to hardly be able to move anyway.

So, living in the Midwest in an area where you can't go four miles without encountering an open-field cattle farm, what are the odds that most of the meat I've eaten in my life is free range and I've just never known the difference? Or would that only be locally-bought stuff? I'm guessing Wal-Mart and Taco Bell get their meat shipped from cheaper sources... but is it cheaper to ship it across the country?

@nate38
@TriforceBun

EpicMealTime ruined bacon.
08/18/15, 19:40   
Edited: 08/18/15, 19:41
A sickness where I can no longer eat meat.
08/18/15, 21:08   
If it's poisoned.
08/18/15, 23:21   
@nate38

Honestly, there's this stereotype of the super douchey, self-righteous vegan/vegetarian that people love to hate on, but those types are the minority. You'll see more hate towards vegans/vegetarians than the other way around. I only bring up the fact that I don't eat meat if the subject comes up, and then it's other people who are usually bringing it up by asking me questions about it or fretting about what I am going to eat at an event. "Don't worry about it."

@Tranquilo

I'm talking this basically.



It is inevitable. Nobody can be sure of exact time tables, but we have already seen it begin. You won't get any arguments from me about the negatives of such a situation, at least in the transition period. Basically, capitalism isn't compatible with this type of world unless everybody is cool with the masses starving to death and an uprising of violence.

@deathly_hallows

That's how I see it. There's nothing inherently wrong with eating meat... how our ancestors hunted and consumed animals for survival. But the modern industry? Well, if somebody can sit through a video that exposes the conditions that these animals live under without at least feeling uncomfortable, I've gotta question whether there's any empathy inside. It's clearly fucked up.
08/18/15, 23:38   
Edited: 08/19/15, 00:22
@TriforceBun

It's not semantics, it's philosophy. Same argument I've had on this board before about how the point of life is to reproduce. It's the reason that humans still exist, but it's not the point of anything.

Anyway, I don't think that's a very compelling argument. Think of the implications of men being able to physically overpower women and what that might mean we're meant to do. Or that stimulating the prostate causes sexual pleasure, for that matter.
08/19/15, 00:13   
Edited: 08/19/15, 00:48
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