Yep, I'm makin' it a roundtable.

Not to get too "political" on you, but I watched this six-part video series recently, and I thought it was really well-done. It may seem like a typical anti-GamerGate video at the start, but it isn't. It isn't even truly about Anita Sarkeesian. The analysis is very logical and even-handed, and I appreciated the way that it recast the whole feminism issue (or any social progress issue, really) by framing it from the perspective of the people whom it irritates. Honestly, it almost single-handedly repaired the damage done to my judgement by thousands upon thousands of strident internet-liberals.

Try to go in without any pre-conceived expectations and watch it with an open mind.








I'll give you the Cliffs Notes, in case you don't want to watch right now. Essentially, the video series analyzes WHY people like Anita Sarkeesian produce such a strong negative reaction, and it goes beyond the usual simplistic "They're taking our games!!" rhetoric. This guy posits that the REAL, underlying reason why Anita makes many gamers uncomfortable is that she causes them to question their way they've lived their life to this point. Ignorance is bliss, and the aim of people like Anita is to remove that ignorance. Like the term "privilege". A lot of people hate that term, and it's always rubbed me the wrong way, as well. But it doesn't mean that your life is peaches and cream or that every person from a minority has it tough. It just means that a minority person in the same position as you would have it harder, solely due to the way they were born.

That's an uncomfortable thought, as most people think of themselves as fundamentally good people, and acknowledging that you've never questioned your advantages or thought to help the less fortunate would call your own morality into question. And we're ALL guilty of that, to be honest. It's almost unnatural behavior to revolt against a system that personally benefits you. I mean, I don't like the thought of killing living creatures. I find the thought of hunting utterly revolting. I don't even swat mosquitoes or gnats. If I really considered the fact that animals had to die just so I could enjoy a hamburger, I'd probably be a vegetarian. So I don't WANT to consider it. Because meat is delicious!

Similarly, look at freaking FoxConn. All of our consumer electronics products are basically made of Chinese children. Who the fuck wants to think about that?! What's the alternative?

I'm not saying that I'm necessarily going to change my behavior based on this video series. I still believe that ignorance is bliss, and if you spend all of your time thinking about the evils of the world, your life's probably not going to be very enjoyable. But I still think it was worth watching. It kind of brought stuff that has always been floating at the back of my consciousness to the forefront. And what I most appreciate is that it did so in a non-judgmental way. It might make you a bit uncomfortable, but it definitely won't single you out.

URL to share (right click and copy)

Zero said:

@Mr_MustacheNo one is sitting around waiting for men to do anything for them.

Anita is. Here's someone who didn't.


What TRULY confuses me is why none of you guys seem to have any real belief in what can be achieved through my suggestion. (If I had the money, I'd do it myself...but does that really make sense? An All-Woman team...LED BY A MAN? This is what Zero was citing about Bayonetta's design, so it already doesn't make sense. Gotta be a female CEO.) Gui is already expecting her to not sell well (and has excuses lined up), or you guys don't think one game will make a difference. I just showed you something that made a HUGE difference for women, by one woman, and with one product. It CAN be done. (-- Oh shoot, or maybe this is the first time you're reading about this product? My baaaad. I'll let ya catch up.)


@Jargon

I never said I didn't think she shouldn't have made them; I think she's missed the mark occasionally, sometimes wrong, and embellishes often.

It's that your suggestion is irrelevant, and the only thing that really needs to be said about it is "She obviously doesn't want to do this right now." Maybe with the added "She committed to a movie series she has not yet finished so she CAN'T do that right now anyway." You're the only one illogically suggesting that her NOT doing it is a problem for some reason.

Anyway, none of this is related to Anand's post (other than maybe a live example of people getting angry at her for silly reasons) so we should try to get back on track here.

Zero said:

Anyway, none of this is related to Anand's post (other than maybe a live example of people getting angry at her for silly reasons) so we should try to get back on track here.

We also had a live example of a mob ganging up on one user with a different opinion. Very informative.

A lot of individuals disagreeing with your opinions is not a "mob ganging up".

@Mr_Mustache

I still don't know what your opinion is. Generally it seems to be that Anita is exaggerating how bad things are and that she should be making games herself if she wants a more diverse gaming landscape. When confronted with how that simply doesn't work you retreat to other arguments that make just as little sense. Jargon compared it to whack-a-mole and that seems pretty apt. You haven't changed your mind on any of your stances in this thread despite retreating from nearly all of them?

Having a different opinion is fine but it needs to be built upon some type of reason. Without that you won't convince anyone that your opinion is a valid, informed point of view and if you can't do that then people aren't going to give your opinion the respect you feel it deserves.

@Zero

HAHA!, alright.

The same group of users behaves like a pack of hyenas over multiple threads. Perhaps you oughtta sit them down and have a chat. I thought that we were all relatively equal here (aside from the obvious Editor / Site Owner / Contributor / etc. tiers), you know..like human beings, but if that isn't the case, and certain folks ARE allowed to get away with treating users a certain way...I'm not sure what to say to that.

Just because I'm the only one talking doesn't mean I'm the only one who feels this way. Thats a fact.

@Mr_Mustache I'm not sure what you are referring to though. If you are referring to a bunch of people disagreeing with you, that is going to happen, especially if you keep throwing out a bunch of random opinions without much backing to them. If, however, you think the issue is a bunch of people are being mean and / or harassing you in a way that goes against the (loose) rules of the site, which might be the case (I honestly haven't read everything going on in this thread), that's another story and you would need to point me to the specific people and comments in question. To just get into the attitude that a lot of people disagreeing with your opinions = a mob ganging up on you though, doesn't really work. You have unpopular opinions. It's not wrong for people to disagree with them, and often it will be lots of people disagreeing with them.

And sometimes they cross over into racist / sexist views, which frankly, are going to get people heated. This doesn't mean they are allowed to abuse you in their response to it, and when I see any active name-calling / etc. I try to stop it, sometimes publicly, sometimes privately. But it's understandable to me that people get heated on those issues.

UGH, I just wrote Stephen a HUGE response, and now its gone. What the F.

@Stephen

What you see as ""retreating"" is me attempting to simultaneously answer 5-6 who are all "attacking" from different positions. One-on-one Skype "debates"/discussions have been brought up numerous times on this site before, only to be denied, and it wasn't until now that I fully understood why. I get it now. In a one-on-one situation, that team dynamic doesn't exist.

And "you guys" will never agree with me out of principle. It doesn't matter how valid or entrenched in truth my opinion is. You have your respective pedestals, and thats all there really is to it. Can't do much beyond shake my head.

Anyway, I like to see things in action; I didn't coin the phrase "talk is cheap," but it exists for a reason. If games should be a certain way, make it so and lets see what happens.

@Zero

Its not just "me," and I've seen it happen numerous times in other threads to other users. There is this mindset of "NO, THIS IS HOW THINGS NEED TO BE!!," and anyone disagreeing with that steamroller gets..well, flattened.

@Mr_Mustache

PM me man, I will gladly discuss all of this in as much detail as you like without anyone ganging up on you.

@Mr_Mustache Like I said, if you have specific instances where you think users were being abusive in some form, point them out. But to simply get mad that a lot of people disagree with your opinion... what do you actually want me to do about that? Make a rule that only 3 people can disagree with someone's opinion at any given time? It's not unfair that a lot of people disagree with your opinion.

You always talk about how "pussified" (or whatever) the modern world is, but you simultaneously seem to want to act like a victim every time people speak up about anything you say. It's like you want the rest of the world to "man up" and "just deal with it" and such, but when it comes to yourself, you want everyone to treat you delicately. Makes no sense.

@Stephen

I should do some work and log off of here. I've been handcuffing myself more and more now that I have internet back on this computer, but yeah. I write back to "all" of my PM's, especially those with questions in them, so if you want to send me something, I'll certainly write back.


@Zero

Its the same_people_constantly. And when I stand up for myself, I get backed into a corner and it gets all "how can you say thattt," because X, Y, and Z will ALWAYS have it harder than a privileged individual like me. But I know that when I'm talking with people (regardless of age, race, sexual orientation, gender, politics, what they had for dinner, the last time they farted, etc.), I certainly don't try to undercut them, or deride them, or call names, or whatever.

I don't know why, but this whole thing reminds me of some asshole (and his brother; both were older than me, I think 7th and 8th grade) in 6th grade who accused me of stealing his rollerblades. I said that I didn't, or something, and he told me to guess what color his were. Like a dumb kid who didn't know any better, I said "..brown," and he goes "YEP, that was them, you must've taken 'em!!"


I gotta do work.

@Mr_Mustache

To be fair, I don't think any of us have compared the people we disagree with to a pack of hyenas or (in Tbun's case) a witch hunt.

Perhaps it would help if you didn't see people's disagreeing with your ideas as an attack. I don't think anybody is trying to say that you're a bad person or attack your character, but that seems to be the message you're getting.

@Mr_Mustache @Hero_Of_Hyrule Basically what he said. Again, if you want to point to specific harassment or abuse do so. Otherwise you're just kind of generally complaining that a lot of people are disagreeing with you. I'm not sure how you think forums are supposed to work, but you don't have the right to say whatever you feel like without people offering disagreement.

@Hero_Of_Hyrule

I get accused of being racist, sexist, etc. (when I'm not) constantly. Those are attacks on character. (I was watching Law & Order the other day, and it seemed like the biggest secret that somebody could have about 10-15 years ago was that they were gay. They'd do EVERYTHING they could to keep that secret, including killing someone who knows. Now the biggest thing that can completely ruin you? Being revealed as a racist, or perceived by the "world" as racist. So weird how things change like that. I wonder what the next incarnation of "I hope nobody finds out!!" is. Heck, used to be "Being Communist" years ago, too. And well before that, being a witch!!)

@Zero

I'll simply say that suddenly when you started talking about pointing out abuse, certain parties ceased posting. Weird, right? Some might call it coincidental. Perhaps so.

Oh well for now.

Wait, you're saying we've ceased posting because Zero told you to point out abuse? No! Look, if there's been abuse, as you say there's been, point it out. As far as I can tell, no one's deleted their posts. You complained that was a thing that was happening, so if it was something that was really going on, go ahead and point it out.

Personally I stopped posting because you were complaining that we were ganging up on you. So fine: not gonna reply to you anymore about this. Isn't that what you wanted?

@Mr_Mustache You get accused of posting racist and sexist things when you do so. People will point out when you do these things.

Anyway, nothing was deleted, and even if it was, nothing actually gets DELETED here so I could look it up in the database. So again, if you have examples of posts you think were being abusive to you, point me to them. But people calling you out on racism and sexism is not abuse. And telling yourself over and over that you're a nice guy so OBVIOUSLY you never post anything racist or sexist... irrelevant. Nice people do all the time. Even I do, and people call me out on it too. Which is good, that is how I have grown.

For instance, I actually used to use "gay" as an insult. Until a bunch of people pointed out why that's horrible.

@Guillaume

Hey, I just said "certain parties." I will tell you though that if I got called the principals office and someone had accused me of gaining up on them, and that wasn't my intention, I wouldn't respond with "ok, I'll just ignore them then." Ah well. Have a nice weekend.

@Zero

No, I get perceived as being racist or sexist. Big difference. I run SO much of what I talk to you guys about by my wife first, an actual living, breathing FEMALE, and she (again, a girl) doesn't think I'm being sexist. If I'm talking to a woman about women, and she thinks its fine...why then are a BUNCH OF GUYS crying "sexism!" Confusing as hell, brah.

As for the other stuff, I'll PM you later (though I'll be interested to see what you agree with me on when you're living on the other side of the fence so much). --And who calls YOU out? Only I ever (kinda) call you out publicly, and then you tell me I'm poop.

EDIT- What are you doing tonight? I was just flipping through the guide and Sugar Babies is in Lifetime at 8. I think I'm gonna watch, sounds riveting! (Sugar Daddies follows immediately after the same channel. Wonder how these movies will be framed. Romances? THRILLERS? Cautionary tales? Or something to shoot for? I think the whole thing is unfortunate, but I don't need tuition to study Art History in Florence, so who knows. Any means necessary, I guess. I have a friend who was pretty "flirtatious" with an older woman in exchange for some wrestling boots. Maybe deep down I'm just jealous that I've never been in that position. So many layers to this onion..)

Except we're not in a schoolyard, and nothing's happened here except people trying to have a conversation and you've just said you dislike it when several people are replying to you. What do YOU think the solution is?

…Even in that analogy of yours, you realize the principal would probably tell you to leave them alone, right?

@Guillaume

I don't know. The whole thing feels a little bit too..ironic? I can't really explain it, and you're not in the position so you don't get it. This thread is here because of some videos made by a guy because of something that happened to someone. In no way is it even close to the same level, but its the same ideas. Its not like arguing about sports with your buds, where at the end of the day "who cares;" here I've been subjected to "how would you like it if ________," and a bunch of shaming, and "whack a mole," and blah blah blah. I'm not here to be A PEST. I'm here to talk to you guys, and because I don't have a membership card to your club, you're (multiple) treating me like an asshole.

Like, differing opinions and ideas are great for our diverse culture..until they're different from yours (again, multiple). I wish that things were ok across the board. I FEEL like I've respected all of you guys. If you think I've been disrespectful, I have no problem apologizing. Zero made it a point up there to say "man up;" I made a conscious effort to AVOID that phrase because I felt it would be insensitive to this thread, and circled in red ink as another instance of me being supposedly sexist. Nobody called him out on it, not surprisingly, and here we are.

And now I've posted another "all over the place" message to be filed under "whack a mole;" what if I'm simply not as INTELLIGENT as you guys? Like, seriously, what if you're all X amount of points smarter than me? Would that change things? Would that somehow make anyone feel better? I'd sincerely hope not. I don't think thats the case, but I often wonder if people who have some sort of learning deficiency or whatever are self-aware. I know a lot of people think I'm crazy, I'm pretty sure I'm not, but I look at people who I think are crazy, and I can't imagine that they think they're crazy. I don't know.


I got like..2 and a half hours of sleep last night.

@Mr_Mustache

For the record, I've called Zero out for being puritanical, paternalistic and treating women as if they don't need accountability to be considered equal to men. So it's not like everyone here just has you in their crosshairs. Take a page from Trump here: If you say more outrageous things, expect to hear more outrage.

It's also nice that you run everything by your wife - and her opinion does matter - but it'd be a poor feminist who believed that all women agree on what's sexist and what isn't. Heck, you and I are both white males and we don't agree on what's offensive to white males. Which one of us is objectively right? Neither, of course. It's a point of view thing, and both of us are entitled to our point of view.