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OT: Hey, let's discuss this video series about the Sarkeesian backlash! [roundtable]
 
Yep, I'm makin' it a roundtable.

Not to get too "political" on you, but I watched this six-part video series recently, and I thought it was really well-done. It may seem like a typical anti-GamerGate video at the start, but it isn't. It isn't even truly about Anita Sarkeesian. The analysis is very logical and even-handed, and I appreciated the way that it recast the whole feminism issue (or any social progress issue, really) by framing it from the perspective of the people whom it irritates. Honestly, it almost single-handedly repaired the damage done to my judgement by thousands upon thousands of strident internet-liberals.

Try to go in without any pre-conceived expectations and watch it with an open mind.








I'll give you the Cliffs Notes, in case you don't want to watch right now. Essentially, the video series analyzes WHY people like Anita Sarkeesian produce such a strong negative reaction, and it goes beyond the usual simplistic "They're taking our games!!" rhetoric. This guy posits that the REAL, underlying reason why Anita makes many gamers uncomfortable is that she causes them to question their way they've lived their life to this point. Ignorance is bliss, and the aim of people like Anita is to remove that ignorance. Like the term "privilege". A lot of people hate that term, and it's always rubbed me the wrong way, as well. But it doesn't mean that your life is peaches and cream or that every person from a minority has it tough. It just means that a minority person in the same position as you would have it harder, solely due to the way they were born.

That's an uncomfortable thought, as most people think of themselves as fundamentally good people, and acknowledging that you've never questioned your advantages or thought to help the less fortunate would call your own morality into question. And we're ALL guilty of that, to be honest. It's almost unnatural behavior to revolt against a system that personally benefits you. I mean, I don't like the thought of killing living creatures. I find the thought of hunting utterly revolting. I don't even swat mosquitoes or gnats. If I really considered the fact that animals had to die just so I could enjoy a hamburger, I'd probably be a vegetarian. So I don't WANT to consider it. Because meat is delicious!

Similarly, look at freaking FoxConn. All of our consumer electronics products are basically made of Chinese children. Who the fuck wants to think about that?! What's the alternative?

I'm not saying that I'm necessarily going to change my behavior based on this video series. I still believe that ignorance is bliss, and if you spend all of your time thinking about the evils of the world, your life's probably not going to be very enjoyable. But I still think it was worth watching. It kind of brought stuff that has always been floating at the back of my consciousness to the forefront. And what I most appreciate is that it did so in a non-judgmental way. It might make you a bit uncomfortable, but it definitely won't single you out.

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07/23/15, 21:45    Edited: 07/30/15, 05:09
 
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@Mr_Mustache That seems to be a weird interpretation of that feature. They were all gamers, many working in the industry. Being turned off by a game before getting to it doesn't make them not gamers. If that were true you'd be a not gamer regarding like anything not on a Nintendo platform and most all of the indie stuff on Nintendo platforms too and also pretty much everything on handhelds.

And what do you mean we don't talk about the women who enjoy Bayonetta? Like half the point of that feature was to show a variety of female opinions, and like all features here it had a comment section people could comment in. It got like 13,000+ hits too so... people saw it. If I had wanted to just get on a soapbox and yell about everything I think is wrong with the industry I could have done that.

Anyway, the main reason I thought it'd be interesting to do that Bayonetta feature WHICH YOU SHOULD KNOW BECAUSE IT'S IN MY OPENING is well, here, in my own words from the opening:

However, I have many friends who identify as feminists, the majority of which fall loosely on the "plenty of games have problematic / sexist representations of women" side in these debates (more or less), and as talk of the franchise started heating up due to the upcoming (at the time) release of Bayonetta 2, I began to notice that the opinions, even from self-described feminists, are divided on the Bayonetta franchise much more than I expected that they would be.

So, yeah, it's interesting to get these variety of opinions on Bayonetta, but you're misinterpreting things if you think it means most of the women involved in that feature that took the "pro" side for Bayonetta don't care about representation, think Anita / feminism is wrong, etc. In fact, most of them were feminists who (more or less) tend to side with Anita and very much care about those things. That's precisely why their divided views on Bayonetta interested me, because usually these specific women on know I Twitter were (more or less) agreeing on the problematic aspects of a lot of games out there, yet Bayonetta was this big exception that had some sharply divided views among feminists.

And remember, it was open to everyone who identified as female. Nikki could have had her say too, and I think she was planning on it? I even said I'd edit her stuff in later if she couldn't get it to me on time to go live. Not my fault she never wrote anything!

I do think it would be interesting to do something similar about other games. WOAH... we could totally do it on the Zelda games. Female Gamers Speak About The Legend of Zelda Franchise. I imagine we would see a variety of views from feminists there too.
08/07/15, 01:30   
Edited: 08/07/15, 01:34
@Zero

I skipped your intro, sorry. I was going for meat & potatoes!

I know Nikki could've had her say, but she's..shall we say...less ambitious than I am? Thats putting it nicely. Sorry she didn't participate. She doesn't work well with deadlines, apparently. But thats about 90 other stories for another year.

Yeah, do a feature on Zelda games. Get the same 7 people and add some others. Maybe Mop it up and TK_Thunder and Nikki and whoever else wants to add in can add in for that one. Did you watch that KiteTales video that The Bunster put up? I watched a lot of her other stuff, and her effort to be POSITIVE about games is so refreshing, in the face of NEGATIVITY as the main thing (I mean, pfffft, look at the name of the site we're on). It's like eucalyptus leaves for the soul, mannn.
08/07/15, 01:51   
@Guillaume

I'm pretty excited about it. I loved Mafia 2 and I hope this game is amazing. I love the setting they've decided to go with. Soundtrack should be killer so far we have heard Paint it Black, All Along the Watchtower, and Fortunate Son.

My only concern is that they won't properly handle the racial elements and it will come off as either set dressing or a missed opportunity.

It is something exciting in gaming though. I feel like games have a potential power to make people understand prejudice because it isn't something happening to someone, it's something happening to you as the player.
08/07/15, 04:10   
@Stephen

Yeah, there's always that risk. We've seen Ubisoft's attempts with Assassin's Creed, the one where you're a former slave liberating other slaves? It wasn't handled as well as it should and could have, but still, they tried. That's more than Activision can say.
08/07/15, 05:41   
@Mr_Mustache

It seems to bother you when people point out sexism or a lack of diversity in games. Is that the case?

Why do people who point out sexism or a lack of diversity in games have to meet so many arbitrary requirements before you'll acknowledge their thoughts as legitimate?
08/07/15, 06:54   
Edited: 08/07/15, 08:44
@Hero_Of_Hyrule

If you're referring to Anita or these women up here specifically, its because (as it's been pointed out before) it seems as if those folks are "attacking" gaming from "the outside." I mentioned some girls up there specifically -- from Zero's Bayonetta feature -- and it sounded like the ones that I highlighted who seemed to enjoy Bayonetta (the game AND character) the most are girls who have been entrenched as GAMERS the longest, not necessarily girls who are in "The Industry." Thats a huge difference to me. Like, I've been told on here that I don't know what I'm talking about when on certain topics, and I may not. Indie Music for instance. Am I qualified to speak out on it? By your suggestion, it seems I'm (someone who likes Big Box Corporate Fat Cat Butt Rock) able to be a credible critic, more so than someone who is either a) in a band or b) enjoys the nuances of indie music. Does..that seem right?

Personally, I don't think Anita can rub two controllers together. She's a Feminist First, Gamer Second (if not a Distant Ninth). Did you watch the KiteTales video? Another great example of a gamer who "gets it," and when SHE questions Anita, thats MORE than enough for me. I've been led to believe that I don't like Anita because I'm sexist; when a positivity-breathing, bi-racial female says she's wrong, that holds massive weight in my book.


And the message that we're being fed that if we don't agree with whats "wrong" with gaming that we're either blind to it, in denial, or horrible people is not a productive one. At all. It's incredibly divisive, though I shouldn't be surprised as that is one of the main tools on the other side of the fence.
08/09/15, 02:44   
Someone who has an understanding of feminism is capable of offering their feminist critique of a piece of media, regardless of their past experience with that media. I don't have to listen to an arbitrary number of rap songs before I can offer my feminist critique of a given rap song or tell you that said song partakes in tropes that disempower female characters. I could hate rap songs, but my evaluation of that aspect of that given song wouldn't be impaired. Because I'm not critiquing rap as a whole; I'm just talking about a school of thought as it relates to the lyrics of a given song. You don't need an in depth understanding of rap to do that. The same goes for Sarkeesian when talking about feminist tropes in games.

I also don't get why people are so doubtful about whether or not Sarkeesian plays games when she's offered more proof than plenty of other people, including me. Why is it taken as a given that I play games, but she isn't given that same luxury even after offering photographic evidence?

I'm a feminist and plenty of other things before I'm a "gamer". My hobbies do not define who I am.

I don't think anybody here is implying that you're sexist or a horrible or unproductive person because you disagree with Sarkeesian. I don't know you well enough to speak as to whether or not you're in denial either. I'm pretty sure this has been explained as well. You can enjoy something that is imperfect without being a bad person. But you can also ask that what you enjoy strives to improve and, at the very least, not contribute to harmful cultural trends.

I'm not sure I get the complaints about "negativity" either. That seems like a means of discrediting those who question the status quo as people who are looking for something to be unhappy about or who are solely focusing on bad things. From the perspective of someone who is satisfied with the way things are, how is a challenge to the status quo going to perceived as anything other than negativity? I mean, I'm pretty sure those against gay marriage saw advocates of that as being negative for complaining about something they didn't have. Does that have any bearing on whether or not advocates were in the right?
08/09/15, 03:50   
Edited: 08/09/15, 03:55
@Mr_Mustache Um, I literally just told you that most of the women in my feature support Anita. Stop bringing them up as some alternative of true female gamers who knows what is up. Or maybe do, but acknowledge that many of these true female gamers have issues with sexism in games too. Many of them speak out about it.

Also where are you getting "either blind to it, in denial, or horrible people" as a message? No one is saying that. Straw man. And it's only divisive if the fact that different people have different opinions on things is divisive to you. Not everyone is going to shut up about problems they see, or in many cases EXPERIENCE just to have some fake unity in gaming.

But then again, if you just keep insisting everything is ok when it definitely isn't, then maybe you do have your head in the sand a little.

I dunno. How did we even get on all of this nonsense again?
08/09/15, 04:19   
Edited: 08/09/15, 04:25
@Mr_Mustache

Seems to me you give massive weight to anyone who agrees with you and look for reasons to undermine anyone who doesn't.
08/09/15, 04:25   
Edited: 08/09/15, 04:26
Jargon said:
@Mr_Mustache

Seems to me you give massive weight to anyone who agrees with you and look for reasons to undermine anyone who doesn't.

Holy shit! You just might be onto something!

Seriously, guys, I don't know why you bother debating with Stache. Actually, even more to the point, I don't know why Stache debates with you guys. The way it's gone down in this thread is the same way it goes down in every thread. It's the unstoppable force against the immovable object. It's pointless.
08/09/15, 04:45   
To go full circle, I typed "unstoppable force meets immovable object" into Google and this was one of the first results...

08/09/15, 08:11   
Edited: 08/09/15, 08:11
Jargon said:
@Mr_Mustache

Seems to me you give massive weight to anyone who agrees with you and look for reasons to undermine anyone who doesn't.

Says everyone about everyone. Welcome to Earth. --Will Smith

@Zero

Thats because that is where that phrase originated, courtesy of Gorilla Monsoon, WrestleMania III.
08/10/15, 05:15   
08/10/15, 05:32   
@Mr_Mustache

Then why are you pretending her bi-racialness is a factor whatsoever.
08/10/15, 05:33   
@Zero

How 'bout that. Sorry?

@Jargon

Because I've been told how important the thoughts of non-white, non-"cis male" gamers are throughout this whole thread. And now that she and I are of the same mind, suddenly its not a factor. I'm not pretending anything. Whats with you guys??

--Might I suggest skipping the middleman, and rag on her directly?
08/10/15, 05:48   
Physically speaking, an unstoppable force would phase right through an immovable object and they'd both emerge from the "collision" unchanged.
08/10/15, 08:04   
@Mr_Mustache Hmm, but they're important in the sense of listening to them to try to get a fuller sense of the minority perspective, which really requires being open to new thoughts and change. Not in the sense of finding the few minorities who agree with you and using them to be like see, minorities totally agree with me!

But I think you're right in that most people on any side of any discussion just find whoever agrees with them and use them. It takes a lot of work to really be open to minority perspectives that clash with our white male privilege, etc.
08/10/15, 19:10   
Mr_Mustache said:
@Hero_Of_Hyrule

If you're referring to Anita or these women up here specifically, its because (as it's been pointed out before) it seems as if those folks are "attacking" gaming from "the outside." I mentioned some girls up there specifically -- from Zero's Bayonetta feature -- and it sounded like the ones that I highlighted who seemed to enjoy Bayonetta (the game AND character) the most are girls who have been entrenched as GAMERS the longest, not necessarily girls who are in "The Industry." Thats a huge difference to me. Like, I've been told on here that I don't know what I'm talking about when on certain topics, and I may not. Indie Music for instance. Am I qualified to speak out on it? By your suggestion, it seems I'm (someone who likes Big Box Corporate Fat Cat Butt Rock) able to be a credible critic, more so than someone who is either a) in a band or b) enjoys the nuances of indie music. Does..that seem right?

Personally, I don't think Anita can rub two controllers together. She's a Feminist First, Gamer Second (if not a Distant Ninth). Did you watch the KiteTales video? Another great example of a gamer who "gets it," and when SHE questions Anita, thats MORE than enough for me. I've been led to believe that I don't like Anita because I'm sexist; when a positivity-breathing, bi-racial female says she's wrong, that holds massive weight in my book.


And the message that we're being fed that if we don't agree with whats "wrong" with gaming that we're either blind to it, in denial, or horrible people is not a productive one. At all. It's incredibly divisive, though I shouldn't be surprised as that is one of the main tools on the other side of the fence.

This attacking from the outside bullshit cannot be argued here man. If you play games you are a gamer. That's the only factor that matters. You wouldn't like it if people dismissed your opinions as 'not a real gamer's' because you only play on Nintendo consoles right?

For your second point, if you feel like that is the case why don't you steer the conversation around? Tell us what you think is wrong with gaming and how it might be fixed.
08/10/15, 22:25   
@Zero

..Are you suggesting that Jargon so callously disregarded her opinion (my opinion) because of his white privilege? What a twist!

@Stephen

She doesn't play games. She bought games (with Kickstarter money) to play for her study. Not for enjoyment..ya know, like everyone else who plays games.

Nintendo consoles are real, and I've played them for years. If I did a study talking about how terrible XBOX is (because I play so much XBOX, giggle, RIGHT?), and then I bought all these XBOX games with Kickstarter money, and then I'm like "see? XBOX is horseshit, look at all these games I played," what would you say? "Oh, well clearly he spent the proper amount of time with those games -- OBVIOUSLY, look at that massive stack he took a picture of, and then posted on his Instagram! -- and I totally respect his opinion and we need to see a change, pronto!"


Like Donald Trump, I have no time for Political Correctness. I think (and this struck a serious chord before on here..) that America has been pussified, and we're all like "whoops, can't say that!" or "whoops, gotta please EVERYBODY." How about trying to please one group at a time? If they put out a game to please Black Lesbians, FINE, PUT OUT A GAME TO PLEASE BLACK LESBIANS. I don't know what the problem is. What happens when the game TANKS? "Oh, must've been white guys being assholes again and not supporting it!! Can't you let us have anything?!" Ridiculous. And I read that Triforce Heroes stuff before with the IGN guy; "I wouldn't be a good interviewer if I didn't mention.." Yes, you actually could've been a good interviewer WITHOUT STIRRING THE POT FOR WEBSITE HITS. But thats not a world we live in any longer. Followers on Twitter, views on YouTube, mentions on websites, and internet traffic are ALL that matter anymore.

--Remember those Red Letter Media reviews? He pointed out that Star Wars Episode I was aimed at the broadest audience possible by design, including multiple Queen Amidala costume changes for the would-be girl audience, and adding bad ass Samuel L Jackson FOR the would-be black audience. We all know how that movie went.. Simply leaving it to nerdy, basement-living, mouth-breathing white guys wouldn't have worked, apparently. I mean, we don't want to leave anyone out, do we?

And I STILL don't know why the people completely bitching about the way that games are don't simply MAKE A GAME THAT IS PERFECT IN THEIR EYES. (And I'm not talking about one-man operations like Zero is trying to do, someone assemble a team of designers SOLELY for this purpose, like the Avengers of Feminist Gaming.) Let us play what YOU think is great. Look at how many games have been made via crowdfunding. Apparently Anita can round up the troops to complain about games, but can't actually put the onus on a group of like-minded developers to make it happen. Or is she making a game?? I have no idea. Again, I've gone mostly-dark on Anita stuff. She put out 2 videos in 2014. Thats 363 days where she didn't put something out (or 50 weeks, if you prefer). Not worth it.
08/10/15, 22:48   
An article that's been making the rounds on twitter: No girl wins: three ways women unlearn their love of video games. It might seem like anecdotal evidence given it's just one feminist writer and her sister's impressions, but it sure feels true. People declaring that the games women play don't count is something I see all the time.
08/10/15, 23:05   
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