Yep, I'm makin' it a roundtable.

Not to get too "political" on you, but I watched this six-part video series recently, and I thought it was really well-done. It may seem like a typical anti-GamerGate video at the start, but it isn't. It isn't even truly about Anita Sarkeesian. The analysis is very logical and even-handed, and I appreciated the way that it recast the whole feminism issue (or any social progress issue, really) by framing it from the perspective of the people whom it irritates. Honestly, it almost single-handedly repaired the damage done to my judgement by thousands upon thousands of strident internet-liberals.

Try to go in without any pre-conceived expectations and watch it with an open mind.








I'll give you the Cliffs Notes, in case you don't want to watch right now. Essentially, the video series analyzes WHY people like Anita Sarkeesian produce such a strong negative reaction, and it goes beyond the usual simplistic "They're taking our games!!" rhetoric. This guy posits that the REAL, underlying reason why Anita makes many gamers uncomfortable is that she causes them to question their way they've lived their life to this point. Ignorance is bliss, and the aim of people like Anita is to remove that ignorance. Like the term "privilege". A lot of people hate that term, and it's always rubbed me the wrong way, as well. But it doesn't mean that your life is peaches and cream or that every person from a minority has it tough. It just means that a minority person in the same position as you would have it harder, solely due to the way they were born.

That's an uncomfortable thought, as most people think of themselves as fundamentally good people, and acknowledging that you've never questioned your advantages or thought to help the less fortunate would call your own morality into question. And we're ALL guilty of that, to be honest. It's almost unnatural behavior to revolt against a system that personally benefits you. I mean, I don't like the thought of killing living creatures. I find the thought of hunting utterly revolting. I don't even swat mosquitoes or gnats. If I really considered the fact that animals had to die just so I could enjoy a hamburger, I'd probably be a vegetarian. So I don't WANT to consider it. Because meat is delicious!

Similarly, look at freaking FoxConn. All of our consumer electronics products are basically made of Chinese children. Who the fuck wants to think about that?! What's the alternative?

I'm not saying that I'm necessarily going to change my behavior based on this video series. I still believe that ignorance is bliss, and if you spend all of your time thinking about the evils of the world, your life's probably not going to be very enjoyable. But I still think it was worth watching. It kind of brought stuff that has always been floating at the back of my consciousness to the forefront. And what I most appreciate is that it did so in a non-judgmental way. It might make you a bit uncomfortable, but it definitely won't single you out.

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Yeah they're called Metroid and Alien, which I think was his point?

I mean, Metroid Prime was literally named after the end boss. But that doesn't mean the game is about the end boss, it's about the protagonist.

You could probably say that about Alien too. It was a singular title so it referred to the specific alien in question.

@Zero

But to discredit Zelda as a weak character? They named the SERIES after her.

I don't think that has much of anything to do with whether she is weak or strong? I mean, obviously they named the series after her at the beginning, so it was done at a point where there was nothing on her other than some introduction text and rescuing her at the end. I'm not sure this is compelling evidence that they named the game after her because they wanted her to be a strong character.

@Zero
She broke the Triforce of Wisdom up and (somehow) tucked them away in 8 dungeons though! By 80's standards that's pretty significant.

I always thought the title "The Legend of Zelda" was pretty refreshing. While she's not the playable character, it does highlight how her roles in the games can be very significant (one or two of them notwithstanding).

@TriforceBun

Game idea: play as Zelda in a prequel to the NES game where you physically have to go explore the dungeons, avoid the creatures (or bait them into the dungeons?) and place the Triforce pieces where Link finds them.

@Guillaume
A survival (horror?) title using the original Zelda's engine? Sounds fun. Zelda 1 had its stuff together, I'd love to play any sort of new take on that world.

Back to daydreaming about Zelda Maker...

@Guillaume

And in the sequel, she can walk around for hours before taking a long nap.

Guillaume said:

@TriforceBun

Game idea: play as Zelda in a prequel to the NES game where you physically have to go explore the dungeons, avoid the creatures (or bait them into the dungeons?) and place the Triforce pieces where Link finds them.

Zero, remember when we pitched this idea during our story in games panel?

Sorttttt of. Someone pitched it for sure.

@DapperDave
@Zero

If someone can explain to me how Link to the Past's Helmasaur got into his room, I'm quite ready to listen.

The room was built around him, duh.

@Zero

So they were like "stayy, stayyyyy." Built the room, then built the rest of the dungeon around that.
That was probably a painstaking process.

@Mr_Mustache

Brought him in as an infant. He grew in to it.

So, taking my morning shower today (where I do my best thinking), I had a few thoughts spring to mind on this matter. Not trying to start anything, simply inquiring:

1) I don't if it was earlier in this thread, or another race-/gender-fueled issue, but the topic of "Black Lesbian" came up as a "you wouldn't want to play as this type of character" situation. This suggests that there are a lot of Black Lesbians out there who are complaining about not getting to play as Black Lesbians. Is this the case? If so...where are they? I know a lot of women (and other races) feel strongly about videogames, and get their faces out there. Zero made reference to a website full of marginalized gamers before. Is there a..figurehead? of this movement? I couldn't even really think of any (non-porn) Black Lesbians outside of characters on Orange is the New Black, and Wanda Sykes (..right?), and I haven't heard anyone in those groups make reference to a videogame ever. So yeah, whats up?

2) Theres a lot of talk about races and women (in America specifically, and I'm guessing Europe?) not getting to play as characters that reflect themselves and their appearances....how does JAPAN feel about any of this stuff? As we know, Japan gets preferential treatment when it comes to games (ie: they get them first, they get games we don't get, Monster Hunter goes handheld because thats how Japan prefers it, etc.), Nintendo is based there, and right now I can't think of a MAJOR Asian-looking character. I know that some characters are SUPPOSED to be Japanese, or hail from Japan, but not one single Ryu looks Japanese (SFII, Ninja Gaiden, BoF, etc.). They're basically white guys with a slight tan, often with hair that isn't black, and standing well over 6 feet tall. Why is this such a huge deal HERE where we have white people everywhere, and it doesn't seem to be a problem over there in Japan where the culture is "essentially" 100% not-looking-like-white-people?


I don't recall either of these things being brought up on NW before, so this should be fresh ground for us. I know how much we hate backtracking (unless its for HOURS AND HOURS in Metroid Prime games; in that case, its apparently fine..).

@Mr_Mustache

What I always hear is that Japan is fascinated by white people and American culture in general due to all the US soldiers who were around helping them rebuild their country after WW2. Whether that's true or not, I dunno.

Mr_Mustache said:

This suggests that there are a lot of Black Lesbians out there who are complaining about not getting to play as Black Lesbians. Is this the case? If so...where are they?

I know some on Twitter. I can introduce you if you're curious.

...but that's not really what the suggestion is anyway. It's just an example to make the point that although for many of us the cis straight white male is just sort of the default, and we get into the habit of well, not really thinking about it at all, but when we do think about it, it is easy to think "who could possibly object?" to such vanilla representations, but it is different for other people. Many of them relate to this type of character about as much as you would relate to a black lesbian, but that's just one example. It could just be a Filipino woman, or a white transsexual, or an elderly homosexual, or a black kid raised by an Asian family, or... there are a million stories out there man. I'm not kidding about Twitter either, I have a ton of gaming friends on there and probably less than half are cis straight white dudes. All kinds of gamers in the world.

So many people not being served by a cis straight white dude default. This is why we want more variety.

As for Japan, that's a complicated question, but the thing is... there are a ton of games that feature Japanese protagonists that look relatively Japanese. We just don't always see them all come to the West, they become the obscure Japanese games. Still, some make it big over here as well. Like the Yakuza games...


Very Japanese.

Speaking of "there are so many stories out there to tell", the trailer for Mafia 3 came out, and it's very different from what people expected.



I find this exciting. It's a setting we haven't seen before in a game, and I kind of want to play it.

Of course, some fans are upset that you play as a black man and are posting racist shit in youtube comments, but I really don't get that. If it's the same gameplay you loved from the first two games, what do you care? And how is a fresh new story a bad thing, compared to the millionth predictable mobster tale we've seen in our entertainment?

Representation is important for visible minorities and women, yes. But the way I see it, it's beneficial to us white guys too. We get stories somewhat more fresh (relatively, and within the limits of the AAA development scene) than the same old stale stuff they keep feeding us. How's that not a win?

@Secret_Tunnel

That trickles all the way down to kids today though? I always thought that Japan hated us for..you know...The Bomb.. Thats a pretty big deal, I wouldn't be too fond of us either.

@Zero

Just Twitter though? No big video projects or speaking engagements? Like..everyone is on Twitter. You know what would be rad, Z? Why don't you invite some of those marginalized gamers here to tell us firsthand?

Yeah, that picture qualifies, surely..but I don't even know what Yakuza is, really. I think I've heard of it, but I might be thinking of, you know...The Yakuza? If it matters, Fei Long (Hong Kong, right?) isn't very Asian either. Probably more than Ryu, but yeah.

I think you should invite some folks down, or do you think we'll (I'll?) embarrass you? Would they not come? That Andrew Eisen dude was here AND did a podcast with us. Never thought that would happen! Coooool!

@Guillaume

Have you heard negative comments about the dude in Bayonetta? I can't remember his name right now, but he's pretty much a walking caricature of Samual L Jackson turned up to 12. I haven't yet earned the right to play as him, unfortunately.

@Guillaume Hmm, looks too violent for me. I did hear it is getting racists up in arms for some reason, so that is always a good thing.

@Mr_Mustache Nah not just Twitter, do you even go to cons man? Lots of marginalized gamers are speaking at cons. Well, and hanging out at them for that matter. As for inviting them here, I always do, and like 1% of people I invite actually show up, then like 1% of them stick around. Just the nature of a forum I guess. A bunch of them did help me on this though.

@Zero

I've been to the Niagara Falls Comic Con the last few years, HammerCon in Hamilton, ON last year, and probably again this year. The only women speaking at the ones I go to are for Cosplay, and they're dressed as scant as possible. ZomBitMe has been at the ones I recently went to. She did a Team Rocket inspired thing..comprised fully of latex. *shiver* It was a sight to behold.

Who has joined up and stuck around? 1% is pretty poopy man, sorry. I can tell you that I was invited, and 100% of the time that I was invited I showed up, so theres that. Maybe you're inviting the wrong people??


Bayonetta article; not sure how much I talked about it before, but:
-Alicia, Erica, Lily, and SJ sound like certified gamers
-Emily sounds like she was on a mission, Anita-style. She was playing Bayonetta FOR a thesis
-Kimberly and Laura were turned off before even getting to it (though Kimberly owned an NES)

-The gamers really enjoyed it
-The ones who didn't / barely played didn't enjoy it

-Alicia says she'd actually like to see MORE flirtatious characters (in addition to non-flirtatious ones)
-Hooray for SJ and her love of BDSM. AND she likes Hyrule Warriors. GIRLS LIKE HYRULE WARRIORS.


No surprises here, really. It seems like some girls are mostly "OK" with it, but we don't get to talk about them ever. So much talk of under- and misrepresentation in this thread, and we get a few girls in that article (or better than 50% of your sample size) who like Bayonetta for what it is, what she is, and would like to see more of it. Thats not the message we're USUALLY fed. Heck, even Gui skips the cutscenes. He's a dude. (And others do, too.)