A Nintendo community
by the fans!
           
  Forum main
 + 
OT: Hey, let's discuss this video series about the Sarkeesian backlash! [roundtable]
 
Yep, I'm makin' it a roundtable.

Not to get too "political" on you, but I watched this six-part video series recently, and I thought it was really well-done. It may seem like a typical anti-GamerGate video at the start, but it isn't. It isn't even truly about Anita Sarkeesian. The analysis is very logical and even-handed, and I appreciated the way that it recast the whole feminism issue (or any social progress issue, really) by framing it from the perspective of the people whom it irritates. Honestly, it almost single-handedly repaired the damage done to my judgement by thousands upon thousands of strident internet-liberals.

Try to go in without any pre-conceived expectations and watch it with an open mind.








I'll give you the Cliffs Notes, in case you don't want to watch right now. Essentially, the video series analyzes WHY people like Anita Sarkeesian produce such a strong negative reaction, and it goes beyond the usual simplistic "They're taking our games!!" rhetoric. This guy posits that the REAL, underlying reason why Anita makes many gamers uncomfortable is that she causes them to question their way they've lived their life to this point. Ignorance is bliss, and the aim of people like Anita is to remove that ignorance. Like the term "privilege". A lot of people hate that term, and it's always rubbed me the wrong way, as well. But it doesn't mean that your life is peaches and cream or that every person from a minority has it tough. It just means that a minority person in the same position as you would have it harder, solely due to the way they were born.

That's an uncomfortable thought, as most people think of themselves as fundamentally good people, and acknowledging that you've never questioned your advantages or thought to help the less fortunate would call your own morality into question. And we're ALL guilty of that, to be honest. It's almost unnatural behavior to revolt against a system that personally benefits you. I mean, I don't like the thought of killing living creatures. I find the thought of hunting utterly revolting. I don't even swat mosquitoes or gnats. If I really considered the fact that animals had to die just so I could enjoy a hamburger, I'd probably be a vegetarian. So I don't WANT to consider it. Because meat is delicious!

Similarly, look at freaking FoxConn. All of our consumer electronics products are basically made of Chinese children. Who the fuck wants to think about that?! What's the alternative?

I'm not saying that I'm necessarily going to change my behavior based on this video series. I still believe that ignorance is bliss, and if you spend all of your time thinking about the evils of the world, your life's probably not going to be very enjoyable. But I still think it was worth watching. It kind of brought stuff that has always been floating at the back of my consciousness to the forefront. And what I most appreciate is that it did so in a non-judgmental way. It might make you a bit uncomfortable, but it definitely won't single you out.

URL to share (right click and copy)
07/23/15, 21:45    Edited: 07/30/15, 05:09
 
Why not sign up for a (free) account?
   
 
@Hero_Of_Hyrule

Maybe this is why the fabled Conversation on Race never happened: no one can agree on what the other one means!
08/03/15, 04:28   
And while we're clarifying, I was NOT NOT NOT advocating any word's use casually, nor do I have any misunderstanding that it's infinitely worse for a white guy to say certain words than a black guy. I simply hate the general concept of word policing, especially in the context of conversations about the words themselves.
08/03/15, 04:46   
@Stephen

Zelda and Link and Ganondorf play similar roles throughout the series--that's part of what gives it its appeal. I'm not saying it's good to always do the same thing, but I think the Zelda series does an overall solid job of keeping the story variety going, even when it involves the whole Triforce struggle. OoT, TWW, TP and SS all play out pretty differently, even if the pacing of Link's quest is usually similar.

In that way, Zelda's role isn't necessarily to just get kidnapped, but she's always the person representing Hyrule as a whole, and Ganondorf's always trying to rule Hyrule, so it's natural for her to get in trouble. And unlike Peach, Zelda has been seen actually running her kingdom, and even when she's not, she tends to do stuff "behind the scenes" (TP, OoT, TWW, LoZ). I'm a big Zelda fan, but I honestly don't want Zelda to be playable in a full adventure. That said, I wouldn't mind a female Link! Normally, I think changing a character's sex is kinda dumb, but with Link and the others, it'd be cool to see alternate versions of Link and Zelda since they're technically new people.

@Jargon

I think videos like this show that it's important to remember that Anita doesn't represent all women, or possibly even the majority of women. A lot of gamer girls love Peach and Zelda--just drop by any gaming convention and you're likely to see more cosplays of those two than any other female game character! Well, except Misty but she doesn't really count.

I guess I ultimately really liked this video because I got a strong sense of earnestness from it. You can tell this person really loves the characters and the games, and even in Anita's "positive female character" sequences, she still feels like she's reading from a term paper. It's academic and sterile and there's no enthusiasm. It doesn't drive me crazy or anything, but I can see why she would upset people; a lot of people genuinely don't feel like she plays many games, or at least enjoys them. To them, it's someone from "the outside" joining their nerdy hobby just to poop on it, for lack of a better term. And some of them are psychopaths, sure, but for plenty of others, her being a girl has nothing to do with it. A lot of gamers weren't thrilled with Mr. Jack Thompson either.

On a related note, why is it accepted that games absolutely don't cause violence but they can cause sexism?
08/03/15, 04:57   
Edited: 08/03/15, 04:57
@TriforceBun

I don't think anybody is trying to say that games cause sexism. Certain parts of games can partake in tropes that devalue or disempower female characters and those tropes are both a product of and a means of reinforcing the values of a patriarchal society. You can still enjoy games or characters that make use of those tropes without being sexist, but the fact that those tropes are so prevalent says something about society.

The big difference between Sarkeesian and Thompson is that Thompson wanted to issue governmental regulations on games, while Sarkeesian just wants people to think about some things that are put into games. She's not saying games are bad, or that they make people sexist, or that they're for sexist people. Thompson is trying to control by force, while Sarkeesian is offering a perspective that many might not have been aware of before watching her videos. It's pretty disappointing that large parts video game community can't tell the difference between the two and seek to silence someone who is only offering a new way to think about things.
08/03/15, 06:00   
Edited: 08/03/15, 06:12
@TriforceBun

No one's saying there's nothing to like about Peach and Zelda or that it's wrong for them to be popular. And as far as I know no one's ever claimed that Anita represents the views of all women, if it wasn't obvious enough from the various reactions that she doesn't. It's sad that people just seem unable to hear or understand the nuances that Anita explicitly states off the top of her videos.

The person who did your video sounded like she was reading much more than Anita to me and her use of Chrono Trigger music for no reason definitely came off to me as blatant pandering to make her cool with the gamers. But I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she just thought it fit her video. Again, even thought I don't agree with all her points, her arguments are fine until she starts claiming that there's something inherently more valid about her perspective than Anita's.

And I can't speak for others, but I've never said gaming can't help contribute to violence. My view is that that's not a reason to censor violent games, just like I don't think sexist games should be censored. I'll criticize the glorification of violence and particularly war in many games all day, every day, though. Edit: Yup and what @Hero_Of_Hyrule said
08/03/15, 06:39   
Edited: 08/03/15, 07:26
08/03/15, 07:11   
TriforceBun said:
On a related note, why is it accepted that games absolutely don't cause violence but they can cause sexism?

Accepted by whom? Studies have shown that violent games can lead to increased levels of aggression. That doesn't prove they "cause violence", which is kind of really, really hard to prove as Calvin tells us...


...but it might suggest a link worth further looking into.

Gamers mostly accept that games absolutely don't "cause violence" because they don't want games to cause violence, not because they have diehard evidence that games don't cause violence. Which, incidentally, is the same reason so many gamers just accept as a fact that games don't "cause sexism" and then attack anyone they think is even suggesting they might, even though there is TONS of research that points to the fact that sexist imagery and representations in media can lead to negative thinking in both men and women. Example.

Honestly we've seen people on this very site say things like "stereotypes wouldn't just come from nowhere" as "proof" that stereotypes must hold truth so yeah, media does affect how people think about things.
08/03/15, 09:16   
Edited: 08/03/15, 09:18
@TriforceBun

Fine but as I said before, even if we agree the Zelda and Peach examples are offbase the topic of the video is the trope itself. You haven't really provided a compelling argument against that, just two of the data points. Do you disagree with the trope itself existing or its harm? Your video didn't really address either of those things which is unfortunate since that was the actual point of Anita's video not just to tear down Peach and Zelda.

I also don't see anything wrong with looking at this media through a more clinical viewpoint. It gives credibility to the idea that she isn't out to rage against games in general. For most people anyway. The video you linked gushed over Peach and Zelda a bit much for it to be taken as a reasonable critique of the characters. It was very much someone who likes those characters defending them.

As for the Jack Thompson thing everyone has already said basically all that needs to be said on it. I would say though that I think it is a key difference between violent videogames leading to violent behavior and violence being blamed on videogames. What was happening was the latter with the assertion that the former was true. I'm pretty sure a game can and has incited violence at some point. Charles Manson blamed a Beatles song for his conspired killings. Ultimately people kill other people and the reasons for doing so will vary wildly. The far more nuanced question that should be looked at is 'does consumption of violent media make people more likely to engage in violence themselves?' It's never framed like that though.

The thing too about violence vs. sexism/racism as a comparison is that we are aware of violence and we know that we are perpetrating it or others are. With prejudice sometimes it is so imperceptible to people it isn't happening to that it is invisible. We all have blindspots with how other people are treated because we only know the world from our perspective. That's why it is so important that people talk about when a group isn't properly represented or how things could improve.

@Jargon

FF9 music too. Almost melted my heart. Almost.
08/03/15, 13:14   
@Zero

I don't put YouTube on the same level, NO, because any schmo-bag out there can get a camera and upload something. With speaking engagements (ie: TED talks...is that it? TED? I don't know) and actual TV, there are tons of checkpoints you gotta go through to get there. I'd ask your thoughts on something like pirate radio, but I already know what you'd say, so I won't.

The Trailer that those guys made after all that time sounds eerily / ironically like Anita's rollout. "Be patient!," they say.

@kriswright

To be crystal clear (and maybe you 100% understood me), I don't want to use that word AT ALL, nor am I whining about it.

Related: oyster crackers are delicious as a standalone, even outside of soup!
08/03/15, 21:43   
@Mr_Mustache You do know Anita does tons of speaking engagements too, right? Including a TED talk? You keep acting like she is just some nobody making bad videos in her basement or something. And she doesn't really have to tell anyone to be patient, she originally planned 5 videos, expanded that to 12 when she brought in way more money than planned, and has released 8 of those so far. Yeah she is a small bit behind schedule but that's pretty normal for these kind of projects, especially when they expand beyond the original scope, and when your project draws tons of harassment and attacks and you end up at cons and on TV shows and such talking about it.

Oddly enough I never see many of the people who actually gave her money complaining about her timeline.

Anyway you're right, anyone can just get a camera and make a video and throw it on Youtube. And millions of videos have barely any hits, often because they're half-assed garbage. She puts real time and energy into the production of her videos and it shows.

And anyone can just get a pen and paper and write a novel, or a guitar and mic and make an album, or get a computer and Unity and make a game like I am doing, or get a Mac and make your own badass anime movie by yourself.. Why on Earth is it a bad thing that people can make money doing these things? It's not like people just GET FREE MONEY FOR NOTHING, you need to do the same thing all artists, musicians, etc. need to do and go out there and find your market and appeal to them. It's just basic "small business" Capitalism which conservatives are supposed to love but... you hate it for some reason.

I honestly think a part of it comes from a gross misunderstanding of how anyone "makes it" since you're not in the business of producing things for consumption. Like, you do realize that Nirvana was an indie band first, right? And that their music didn't magically become great when they signed with a major label? And that millions of smaller artists, musicians, content creators, game makers, etc. never sign with a bigger publisher, but just keep making awesome stuff?

I forget though, you don't even count indie games as being legit. You have this thing I really, really don't understand where you need someone else to legitimize something for you (like say, a major game publisher deciding to publish an indie game) before you acknowledge the worth of something. You do know that Vanillaware, the maker of Muramasa, is essentially an indie developer, right?

You're right though, I love how things work in the modern world, because big fat cat corporate publishers no longer have complete control over all mediums, self-publishing in pretty much any medium is not only possible now but not even particularly difficult, and it has made things so, so much better for anyone sick of monotonous corporate nonsense who want to find great content that isn't controlled by dudes in business suits.
08/03/15, 22:56   
Edited: 08/03/15, 23:07
Zero said:
You're right though, I love how things work in the modern world, because big fat cat corporate publishers no longer have complete control over all mediums, self-publishing in pretty much any medium is not only possible now but not even particularly difficult, and it has made things so, so much better for anyone sick of monotonous corporate nonsense.
Good post but I have to point out that the fat cats are still there, they're just different fat cats. Music labels used to screw artists out of their money, now it's tech giants. It's now Silicon Valley that has complete control over every service you'd like to used to distribute your art.
08/03/15, 23:12   
@Guillaume Well, there are still barriers, but like... 10 or 20 years ago the options were so much more limited. And I'm also not saying that social, financial, etc. barriers don't still exist, because they do. But it's pretty cool to me how many people can just make what they want and get it out there somehow. And it's tough to find the best stuff in the mess of mediocre stuff sometimes, but it's still a better situation than things were in the past.

I think the issue here is certain detractors just really, really, REALLY do not want to admit that Anita's videos hold appeal beyond some kind of "conning" of people interested in feminism or something. The reality is a big part of why they became popular is she puts a lot of effort into them and has high quality production values. I don't think these are even necessary to create a compelling piece of media, but they certainly help sell it.
08/03/15, 23:17   
Edited: 08/03/15, 23:20
@Zero

Oh, I'm WELL AWARE she does those other things, thats what makes her YouTube series so shitty. Do it on a GRAND scale. Do it at a TED talk so we can watch it on Netflix. Show it in a grand ballroom, or better yet -- at E3 --, not right after "keyboard cat" or "Chocolate Rain" or whatever. And nobody gathered up dollars (one person at a time) for her to go do those engagements she makes her living on. She was paid (in advance or afterwards) like a professional in a lump sum. Are you about to tell me that if I had the same production value that Anita had on her YouTube videos, you'd pay them the same mind as you would hers? Absurd. I have no credentials (outside of this stuff), and I'm just an asshole on YouTube.

--She's not even done with the videos?! I didn't even realize that. I stopped watching her stuff. Or did I stop watching and coincidentally the last one I saw was the last one she put out? Good gravy, Marie. (And still, you're telling me that what we're watching is worth...over $13,000 AN EPISODE?!? GOD DAMMIT, what kind of world are we living in.. How can you, or anyone, defend that?) (The income required from 2 of her episodes could buy a REALLY nice car that will last you FOR YEARS. My brand new '08 Mustang cost less than her two-part "Women as Background Decoration" video, the only ones she put out in '14.)


There is a difference between cutting your teeth, "coming up through the ranks," and getting your Big Break vs. "hey, give me some money so I can barf my thoughts on YouTube. They're very important, but not important enough for me to foot the bill." Does Neil Degrasse Tyson do the same stuff? "I want to tell you about the Kuiper Belt...but its going to cost you." I know the wrestling business, I have friends who are in bands. They play little joints reaching everyone they can a handful of people at a time. Thats the way it goes out there, and they knew what they were getting into. Some of us wrestle for a few years, make $0, and have a good time. Others travel constantly, put the work in, and make it to the WWE. They don't go on a crowdfunding site and ask people to help them buy wrestling boots.

"Conservatives are supposed to love, but..": well THERE'S a blanket statement. I thought you didn't like those?

And I don't like Nirvana. Never have. (I must've known deep down they were Indie!!)


You managed to squeeze "corporate," "fat cats," and "capitalism" into your that post so much, I've actually started a timer counting down to the point when you're fully adorned in head-to-toe hemp, sandals, and literally, physically picketing outside of a building. Trading your signature argyle for tie dye? Say it ain't so, mannn..
08/04/15, 00:22   
I kind of like Anita's videos much more than I like Anita the person....

Am I alone in this? Seems like most people like both or hate both.
08/04/15, 00:28   
Edited: 08/04/15, 00:29
@DapperDave

I think her production value is "there," but thats probably because I watch SD programming all day at work, and then I get blitzed by some HD graphics and thats that. I'd never send her death threats or hassle her on the streets though.

I'm generally not fond of people stirring the pot too much. If you're someone who LIKES to stir pots though, or think the pot needs stirring, I'm sure we're on different pages. No surprises there.


See also: PETA, PTC, women w/ dyed pit hair, Edward Snowden, Al Sharpton, cast of The View

EDIT- PETA: I'm thinking of "FUR IS MURDER!" situations, and then you're doused with gallons of red paint.
08/04/15, 00:43   
Edited: 08/04/15, 00:45
@Mr_Mustache Well let's be clear about something, I never paid a cent towards her videos, so while I find them interesting, I am not a paying customer so to speak. With that in mind I may or may not find something you do as interesting, depending on the topic, but I probably wouldn't fund it, because I rarely ever fund anything period, Anita's videos included. If you had those production values though I think you could find a market with most anything you have to say, but obviously having something to say that interests people would help a lot. But you're not doing it, so I guess we will never know.

No one is saying those videos are worth $13,000 an episode? You're doing this weird thing again where you conveniently ignore how Capitalism works. It's not like New Super Mario Bros. Wii became ridiculous because it sold 25 million copies at what... around $50 each... for a total revenue of over a billion dollars. WAS ONE GAME WORTH OVER A BILLION DOLLARS?! WHAT KIND OF WORLD DO WE LIVE IN WHERE PEOPLE MAKE THIS MONEY?!

Are you even serious right now though? You're sounding like a Socialist, which is awesome, but is also the opposite of your politics so it is weird. Like, if her making $13k an episode is some atrocious thing because we're all struggling, I want to know how you feel about corporate CEOs. Iwata made billions off of poor folks like us. Atrocity?

Anita did cut her teeth though. I mean, you do realize she was doing this for YEARS before this series, right? Come on man.

@DapperDave I really don't know much about her as a person. Seems like next to impossible to get unbiased information on that nowadays too. Not that I am really that concerned either though. To me she is just sort of the first one to come out and say this stuff on a big level, she shouldn't represent a whole movement.

@Mr_Mustache Now you're saying you're not a fan of people "stirring the pot" while you support Donald Trump. I seriously can't even respond to that.

But yeah, I definitely think pots need stirring. Until we get a nice mix at least.
08/04/15, 00:46   
Edited: 08/04/15, 00:49
@Zero

Yes, I know she was around before the videos. It's like, can you see Steven Spielberg going on Kickstarter because he wants to make a YouTube movie? "What is Steven Spielberg doing on Kickstarter? He's Steven Spielberg..." Of course he wouldn't do that, it would make him look like a schmuck. Kickstarter is a step BACKWARDS. Now, you, Dave, T-Bun, ST, you guys all made your games (or are making) and used crowdfunding to do it, because you don't have it. I have NO PROBLEM with that (and tangibility is nice..if you were doing Kickstarter to TALK about making your game.....we'd have ot have a serious talk about that, sir.), because you guys are just starting out. I have mixed feelings on a lot of the big name guys making games; Inafune, etc. I'm aware of Mega Man struggles though. I don't know. I don't know.

Why do you keep trying to put me in one box? Thats twice on this page. You're doing what you tell me NOT to do.


And Trump's making me cringe a lot, surely. I agree with some of the stuff he's saying though. But we've got a whole 'nother thread for that.
08/04/15, 01:09   
Zero said:
@Mr_Mustache
No one is saying those videos are worth $13,000 an episode? You're doing this weird thing again where you conveniently ignore how Capitalism works. It's not like New Super Mario Bros. Wii became ridiculous because it sold 25 million copies at what... around $50 each... for a total revenue of over a billion dollars. WAS ONE GAME WORTH OVER A BILLION DOLLARS?! WHAT KIND OF WORLD DO WE LIVE IN WHERE PEOPLE MAKE THIS MONEY?!
.

As someone who feels deserving of more success than I've gained, I feel like I understand this Internet phenomena of hating (perceived) undeserved success. I understand it, but don't participate in it.

Does Anita deserve all that cash for making videos? Of course not. But also - why is this relevant to the discussion? It isn't. It's just outrage over a perceived injustice.

Recently, that Scott Cawthon, who made Five Night's at Freddy's wrote an update where he addressed his haters. See, if you haven't heard, his haters are mad at his success. They are mad that his games are so simple, yet he's made so much money from them and received so much praise. They don't like the fact that he's putting out sequels so fast and making even more money. How dare he put out something that people want to pay for, right?

Unlike many of these whiners who (I assume) have not made their own games, I should have much stronger feelings to tear down Scott in this way. I assume my game took more resources and effort to create and yet has achieved the success of just one grain of sand compared to the beach that Five Night's at Freddy's has achieved.

So I can understand the feeling of injustice. It's not fair. Blah blah blah. Cry cry cry. But I can also see how illogical it is. Scott Cawthon made something. People bought it. He was very successful. Should he be apologizing for that?

No, he shouldn't, which is why the haters then look so desperately for a legitimate reason to dislike the successful. Some objective wrongdoing to validate their own feelings. In Anita's case, the haters have latched on to the fact that she hasn't made all her videos yet (which is weird since don't they not want her to make videos?). That's pretty flimsy, but they are looking hard for something she has done wrong in order to legitimize their frustration that she is so successful. Haven't you noticed that the more successful Anita comes, the more people become outraged?

If anyone feels that way, my advice is to let go of that feeling. It accomplishes nothing. If I spent all my time trying to bring down anyone I thought was undeservedly successful, I'd have no time to sleep or eat, much less attempt to be successful myself.

Or maybe you'll eventually find something the successful person you despise has done wrong and get to see them called them out on it. This will get you a fleeting feeling of satisfaction, but that's it. You are still unsuccessful.

Instead, of focusing on bringing others down from their (deserved or undeserved) successes, use your energy to try to achieve success yourself.
08/04/15, 01:16   
Edited: 08/04/15, 01:18
Mr_Mustache said:
@Zero
--She's not even done with the videos?! I didn't even realize that. I stopped watching her stuff. Or did I stop watching and coincidentally the last one I saw was the last one she put out? Good gravy, Marie. (And still, you're telling me that what we're watching is worth...over $13,000 AN EPISODE?!? GOD DAMMIT, what kind of world are we living in.. How can you, or anyone, defend that?) (The income required from 2 of her episodes could buy a REALLY nice car that will last you FOR YEARS. My brand new '08 Mustang cost less than her two-part "Women as Background Decoration" video, the only ones she put out in '14.)

It is worth what people are willing to contribute to it. I also think though that you are trivializing how much work goes in to these videos. The actual recording of footage is the easy part, it is coming up with the script, researching examples, talking about misconceptions or misinterpretations people might have and the editing. It's probably not $13k worth of work but that doesn't matter. People felt that it was worth it to them to pay her that for the videos and in the end Anita gets a nice salary for making videos people want her to make.

I also don't understand your annoyance with YouTube. People put some really professional stuff on YouTube. There's worthy content on there.

DapperDave said:
I kind of like Anita's videos much more than I like Anita the person....

Am I alone in this? Seems like most people like both or hate both.

This perplexes me. How do you have an opinion of Anita as a person? I have no opinion either way as outside of her videos I don't know anything about her.

Mr_Mustache said:
@DapperDave

I think her production value is "there," but thats probably because I watch SD programming all day at work, and then I get blitzed by some HD graphics and thats that. I'd never send her death threats or hassle her on the streets though.

I'm generally not fond of people stirring the pot too much. If you're someone who LIKES to stir pots though, or think the pot needs stirring, I'm sure we're on different pages. No surprises there.


See also: PETA, PTC, women w/ dyed pit hair, Edward Snowden, Al Sharpton, cast of The View

EDIT- PETA: I'm thinking of "FUR IS MURDER!" situations, and then you're doused with gallons of red paint.

How do any of those people stir the pot. I'll agree PETA can be extreme but the rest of them? Like has Al Sharpton done something I'm unaware of? Or the women from the View? Women with dyed pit hair seem like they are minding their own business...
08/04/15, 01:30   
Stephen said:




This perplexes me. How do you have an opinion of Anita as a person?


Anything she says or does outside of what I see on those videos. Her tweets, kickstarter, ted talks, etc.
08/04/15, 01:37   
Edited: 08/04/15, 01:38
  Forum main
 +