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OT: Hey, let's discuss this video series about the Sarkeesian backlash! [roundtable]
 
Yep, I'm makin' it a roundtable.

Not to get too "political" on you, but I watched this six-part video series recently, and I thought it was really well-done. It may seem like a typical anti-GamerGate video at the start, but it isn't. It isn't even truly about Anita Sarkeesian. The analysis is very logical and even-handed, and I appreciated the way that it recast the whole feminism issue (or any social progress issue, really) by framing it from the perspective of the people whom it irritates. Honestly, it almost single-handedly repaired the damage done to my judgement by thousands upon thousands of strident internet-liberals.

Try to go in without any pre-conceived expectations and watch it with an open mind.








I'll give you the Cliffs Notes, in case you don't want to watch right now. Essentially, the video series analyzes WHY people like Anita Sarkeesian produce such a strong negative reaction, and it goes beyond the usual simplistic "They're taking our games!!" rhetoric. This guy posits that the REAL, underlying reason why Anita makes many gamers uncomfortable is that she causes them to question their way they've lived their life to this point. Ignorance is bliss, and the aim of people like Anita is to remove that ignorance. Like the term "privilege". A lot of people hate that term, and it's always rubbed me the wrong way, as well. But it doesn't mean that your life is peaches and cream or that every person from a minority has it tough. It just means that a minority person in the same position as you would have it harder, solely due to the way they were born.

That's an uncomfortable thought, as most people think of themselves as fundamentally good people, and acknowledging that you've never questioned your advantages or thought to help the less fortunate would call your own morality into question. And we're ALL guilty of that, to be honest. It's almost unnatural behavior to revolt against a system that personally benefits you. I mean, I don't like the thought of killing living creatures. I find the thought of hunting utterly revolting. I don't even swat mosquitoes or gnats. If I really considered the fact that animals had to die just so I could enjoy a hamburger, I'd probably be a vegetarian. So I don't WANT to consider it. Because meat is delicious!

Similarly, look at freaking FoxConn. All of our consumer electronics products are basically made of Chinese children. Who the fuck wants to think about that?! What's the alternative?

I'm not saying that I'm necessarily going to change my behavior based on this video series. I still believe that ignorance is bliss, and if you spend all of your time thinking about the evils of the world, your life's probably not going to be very enjoyable. But I still think it was worth watching. It kind of brought stuff that has always been floating at the back of my consciousness to the forefront. And what I most appreciate is that it did so in a non-judgmental way. It might make you a bit uncomfortable, but it definitely won't single you out.

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07/23/15, 21:45    Edited: 07/30/15, 05:09
 
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@Jargon
I guess that's not too bad, then. Looking at the transcript of the old video, he also seems refreshingly down-to-earth and honest about having a racist streak. He actually admitted "I am racist, to a point".

Let it not be said that he is lacking in self-reflection.
07/28/15, 04:24   
Edited: 07/28/15, 04:25
@Jargon

Now THAT, I did not know.

What a pal.
07/28/15, 04:25   
Zero said:
Yeah but we had to leave IGN over both the editors and the forum members negativity, remember?

Also how can you say there is no backlash against the porn industry?! I think there is a pretty constant backlash. Why it doesn't come out in the same way though probably has a lot to do with the fact that porn is by definition going to contain nudity and sex and all of that so you won't find too many fans of porn who are like "Woah, this is too much!" With that said they do exist, and attempts to make more female-positive porn have arisen.

Don't get me going on porn. I read more about, watch more, etc. than anyone on here, I'm assuming, and the dirty little secret is that a lot of women in (and out) of porn LIKE what is happening to them, to the people they're watching respectively. It isn't all for the guys. If they didn't like what was happening to them, you wouldn't see the same actresses showing up in the same genres over and over and over again. I get that its a business, and you can easily say that you like something to fool people into buying your products, but I refuse to believe that that is the case all the time. Furthermore, we've gotten to a point where women are directing themselves and other girls in their movies, and often times its raunchier than the stuff the male directors put out. Belladonna, for instance, puts stuff out that is even too much for me to handle. Thats her deal.

If someone reads or watches more, lets talk. PM is fine.

-----

I'll write back about the Hogan stuff at home. This computer at work is BALLS.
07/28/15, 05:11   
At the 4th video now, his Gamergate one. If anything I think he is being too kind to Gamergate. He makes it sound like two distinct groups, with only the tiny one being the big anti-feminist problem while the larger one are just kind of... have better motives yet are being used somehow? But otherwise it is still pretty accurate.

Another weird point. Ian Miles Cheong, a dude who Gamergate decided was a Nazi based off of some dumb post he made years ago as a teenager and harassed for months calling him a Nazi every time he tried to speak, is now like... sort of friends with Gamergate because he just sort of randomly decided to start attacking the SJWs. Some suspect he did it to get them off his back, etc. but who knows. Weird.
07/28/15, 17:29   
Edited: 07/28/15, 17:37
@TriforceBun

I think the point of the videos is less "Zelda/Mario/Other's major female character is taken captive and that's bad"

and more "A lot of games' major female character is used as a disempowered hostage, we should think about that and change it in the future"

It's less about the individual examples and more about the widespread and broad uses of these types of characters or situations in media. That's what tropes are. It's not what Zelda's role in the Legend of Zelda says about that series, but what the role a large number of major female characters in games are put into says about our culture.
07/28/15, 18:56   
Edited: 07/28/15, 19:06
Mr_Mustache said:

You'd grow up a racist yourself, and then everyone would tell you how you're such an awful person, even though you weren't in charge of the way you were developed. And God forbid you made a sex tape; 8 years later your racist comments are discovered on it, and then you're stripped from the WWE's website as if you never existed.

How about instead of feeling bad for people who are ridiculed for being racist, you feel bad for people who are ridiculed by racists?

People are in large part a product of their environment, but that doesn't excuse malicious behavior or centuries of suffering inflicted upon large numbers of people on the basis of race, gender identity, or sexual orientation. Especially when one is aware of their harmful behavior but continues to act that way under the defense of "that's just how I was raised."
07/28/15, 19:02   
Edited: 07/28/15, 19:07
Hero_Of_Hyrule said:
@TriforceBun

I think the point of the videos is less "Zelda/Mario/Other's major female character is taken captive and that's bad"

and more "A lot of games' major female character is used as a disempowered hostage, we should think about that and change it in the future"

It's less about the individual examples and more about the widespread and broad uses of these types of characters or situations in media. That's what tropes are. It's not what Zelda's role in the Legend of Zelda says about that series, but what the role a large number of major female characters in games are put into says about our culture.

On point. Gold star.
07/28/15, 19:12   
@Hero_Of_Hyrule I think you're right. Unfortunately though I think these broader arguments become easier to dismiss because it's like, if we're not saying the creators of Zelda are WRONG and need to change, or the creators of Bayonetta or GTA or whatever are WRONG and need to change, etc. then who exactly are we asking to change? And if we're not asking anyone to change, what are we asking for? Etc. A lot of people think if we're not specifically calling for a specific change in a specific game or series, we have no real point.

And I never really know what the answer is to that other than I'm not generally not personally necessarily interested in calling out specific games or creators as anything other than examples of a larger issue, and I want creators to think more of the broader context when they create things. If they all still create the same things well, ok I guess? But I've noticed that many, especially in the indie world, are becoming educated on these topics and letting it influence their designs for, in my opinion, the better. So maybe for me it isn't about forcing change but just about making sure the information is out there and the creators can use it or not.

And at the end of the day aside from the obviously bigger issues like harassment and such, that is why I just can't support such a huge backlash against Anita. She's putting arguments out there. They're not dangerous arguments like white power arguments or anything, just arguments about the representation of women in games that, even if she is wrong, are not really going to hurt anyone in any serious way. Literally no creator has to agree with her or let her opinions influence their games. But some, like myself, will often agree with her and be glad that she is presenting these arguments and that will influence their games. And the people completely trying to shut down this process are, I think (maybe ironically) doing more to try to stop the flow of "free speech" than anyone else in this mess, despite the fact that they wear "free speech" as their badge when they're attacking Anita. Because many of them really are trying to completely shut her down. That's a large part of what rape and death threats are about... shutting someone up. And even the ones who legitimately are not trying to shut her up often tend to gang up with the ones who are. That's really fucked up.
07/28/15, 20:09   
Edited: 07/29/15, 01:27
@kriswright

This isn't ANOTHER tape though, right? Its the same old tape from long ago? I don't understand why an 8 year old tape has transcripts floating around NOW. How are 8 years worth of people OK with it, but suddenly someone sees it and it isn't OK? Thats more confusing to me than anything else. Slurs are nothing new.

@Zero

Oh, I don't think that its 100% because of his upbringing. He's been in "the business" for a long time, so I'm sure something irked him somewhere. A lot of people don't like Hogan either, so theres that, too. And I'm told by a reputable source that "all" Indian folk are at least a little bit racist against blacks, so I'm wondering if some of that carries over to the Polynesian culture as well, which Hogan is of. Yeah, he's not really a "white" guy. His leathery skin is certified Pacific Islander!

Jargon said:
@Anand

To be fair, he had his best friend's permission.

HA!

@Hero_Of_Hyrule

Dude; I feel bad for everybody, constantly. And I was personally ridiculed by a racist black man in front of his wife and child last year (or two?), and I just sat there and took it all with my mouth agape, and the response to me from my fellow, very white Negative Worlders was "oh, thats one guy." So that dude gets a pass. Hulk Hogan (the guy who basically MADE wrestling and provided a livelihood for thousands of people through the years) does not.


EDIT- I'll try to watch these videos later. Or maybe I can get 1 in now before work..
EDIT2-
Video 1: I'm apparently Angry Jack. This goes back to what I said a few weeks ago where white straight male, etc. is about the most uncool thing that someone can be. And everyone is afraid of "me?" What the F. I'm completely harmless.
Video 2: Again, "Smugness is not a good quality." I don't drink either, but thats a personal choice for me, and has no bearing on my thoughts about other people. I know how I am when I get hooked on something, its the same reason I've gone so long without having a credit card. If I can just buy ANYTHING with a piece of plastic, and worry about it later...whats to stop me from buying anything I want at any time? And for the drinking, I don't want to wrap my car around a telephone pole, or God forbid kill someone minding their own business. It also allows me to DD and make sure that my loved ones who DO want to drink can do so. Its a role that I've never complained about, and it doesn't bother me one bit. Plus: Shirley Temples are DELICIOUS.

-----------------

Page 2 stuff:

Guillaume said:
You can just look at any of our elimination polls to see people tear down games they hate/like less instead of propping up the games they love.

We call that "The Shadowlink Way."

@Secret_Tunnel

I haven't heard of Hatred or Snakebird. You could be making things up now..

Anand said:
@Brick
I wonder how many people watch the videos and grudgingly identify as Angry Jack.

I'll have to put my order in for an "I am Angry Jack" shirt, apparently. See above.

@TriforceBun

I agree with you completely about Princess Zelda.
07/28/15, 21:40   
Edited: 07/28/15, 22:14
@Mr_Mustache

Side note: I actually really like it when someone says that they don't drink at a party. That means there is one less person drinking the booze. Now there's more to go around for those that do!

I don't really have anything else to add to this thread.
07/28/15, 23:40   
Mr_Mustache said:
Guillaume said:
You can just look at any of our elimination polls to see people tear down games they hate/like less instead of propping up the games they love.

We call that "The Shadowlink Way."

Rubbish, it's an elimination poll. You can't vote for the ones you do like. Voting for the ones you like less is the only option. Everyone does it, because everyone HAS to do it that way.

If there's any difference in my approach, it's that I take the long view and pick a chosen winner from the start, then work to eliminate all threats early on. If that's not propping up a game I love (within the constraints of the elimination poll paradigm), I don't know what is.
07/29/15, 00:46   
Edited: 07/29/15, 00:47
@Zero

I think where it helps is to point out the cliche for what it is, so if someone puts a damsel in distress in a game in the future, they have to do it with awareness, not because they don't know better. Personally, I like quite a few fairytales where a guy rescues a princess. I don't think those are categorically sexist. But that can't be the only story that gets told in games and the sad truth is that it was a stock cliche that an overwhelming number of early games went for.

No one can really claim innocence if they do a damsel in distress story now, though. It has to be a deliberate choice. And I think that's good, because it should discourage the dominance of the trope going forward.
07/29/15, 00:51   
@GameDadGrant

I think you added just fine! I'm glad I (or someone like me) could help you out.

@kriswright

Theres also that "human" element though, too. For instance, Nikki called me on a cell phone today and asked me if I could bring her a hat because her face was getting sunburnt by the pool. So I got a hat, and walked over the to the pool at the complex. To the rescue.

Damsel in distress. Real life.
07/29/15, 01:02   
@Mr_Mustache

I actually used to be that guy. "The guy who doesn't drink." Was that way for years. Maybe that's why I don't look down on others that choose not to drink.
07/29/15, 01:16   
@Mr_Mustache Your "reputable" source is wrong about "all" Indian people. Maybe you should not be listening to sources talking about "all" Indian people.
07/29/15, 01:28   
Edited: 07/29/15, 01:29
Page 3:
kriswright said:
And I'm happy to hear people like Stephen and Zero say she made them think about things in a new way. That's all the proof you need.

But Zero and Stephen are already wired for that type of thinking. We've seen Big Z talk (at length) about getting more women here since WAY before the videos dropped. In essence, she "pandered" to the same audience. Kinda. ..Do you know what I mean?

hats like some NASCAR driver taking Xarelto, so I think its a good idea. He didn't change my mind, but its the blood thinner I know most about because of what he does. So now I'm on it. He didn't change my mind, but it looks like it. See what I mean? Hell, I bought a 4-pack of Dewshine a few months ago simply because Dale Jr. carried it on his car. Anita is almost advertising to her target demo. Do the Dew!

@TriforceBun

I think putting "IMO" is pretty unnecessary/redundant, too. I mean, of course its your opinion. In fact, the suggestion that you use "IMO" when its ones opinion suggests that any time "IMO" isn't being used someone is speaking 100% FACT. Well, that can be a dangerous path to travel down, no? Everything I type is opinion. ...Gosh, does somebody here seriously think that they are 100% correct and touting FACTS about everything all the time? I sincerely hope not!

@DapperDave

I think you summed that up really well, despite what anyone else may say.

@kriswright
@DapperDave

Jessica Chobot (I think KW took a swing at her with that Master Chief Helmet barb, yes?)? She was a judge for the BattleBots finals the other night, funnily enough.

You know who is a great female gamer? Mop it up. I'd read her report.


------

@Zero

With all due respect, what makes you a better source? May I see some credentials?
07/29/15, 01:38   
@Mr_Mustache

A guy who was an asshole to you does not get a pass. You know who does get a pass? Anyone who is not that specific asshole. Because they had nothing to do with it.

That's always your problem. You are constantly trying to draw conclusions about entire groups of people based on the actions of individual members of the group. I'm sure you've met some smug vegans. That does not say anything about the many other vegans who were not smug to you.

Of course you know this because if I said Hulk Hogan said racist stuff so all wrestlers are racist, you would correctly call foul.
07/29/15, 01:41   
@Mr_Mustache

I wasn't taking a shot at Chobot - I remember that Master Chief helmet thing being a general Big Box video game site issue. I don't particularly respect Chobot, personally. She's definitely been called out as someone who only got her position on sex appeal, licking a PSP and all that. I think she'd have gotten it almost as bad as Anita, to be honest.
07/29/15, 01:59   
@kriswright

I never understood that.

Why would you lick a PSP? Who knows where that thing has been. Think of all the gungy gamer hands that have been all over it.
07/29/15, 02:02   
@Jargon

Man, I dunno, I've been in some locker rooms through my travels. I've heard a LOT worse than what Hogan has said, let me tell you. So you might be right about your sweeping generalization. And how do we know "all" of a group isn't something? I've said numerous times (in defense of myself) "I'm not racist," and some folks around her have a hard time swallowing that. How do you/we know that some members of a group aren't simply lying and getting away with it? Hogan is apparently racist enough for them to pretend he never existed, but they didn't know that until now. He's "fooled" people for the last 30+ years.

Shall we talk about Bill Cosby next? Don't believe everything you hear..


Vegans: 100% of the Vegans I've met / seen have come off as Smug-a-rama. When 100% of a group you interact with behaves a certain way, how are you supposed to react/think? Its like getting bit by sharks all day long, but you keep looking for other shark-filled beaches with sharks that won't eat you.


--You're guilty of it too, brother; up there you say "thats always your problem." Is it? is it "always" my problem? No, its not. Lets not generalize here, please.


EDIT-
@kriswright

Didn't she lick a Master Chief helmet? I thought she did....maybe it was a PSP......both? I don't know.
07/29/15, 02:05   
Edited: 07/29/15, 02:07
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