A Nintendo community
for the fans, by the fans!
 Go to forum index
Tropes Vs Women in Video Games, Somehow a Controversy? (+ general gender / video game discussion)
[locked]
News reported by 
Editor-in-chief
June 14, 2012, 17:58:56
 
The short story is that Anita Sarkeesian of Feminist Frequency has started a Kickstarter to explore the stereotypes of females in video games. Or well, why not just hear it in her words?

I love playing video games but Iím regularly disappointed in the limited and limiting ways women are represented. This video project will explore, analyze and deconstruct some of the most common tropes and stereotypes of female characters in games. The series will highlight the larger recurring patterns and conventions used within the gaming industry rather than just focusing on the worst offenders. Iím going to need your help to make it happen!

The longer story is that because she is a self-proclaimed "feminist" (what this means in her case I'm really not sure, since everyone interprets this label differently when applying it to themselves) that anything she does somehow automatically becomes super controversial, and she has received rape threats and death threats and attempts to shut down this project from (primarily) male gamers. Because obviously if you disagree with feminism the way to get your point across is to tell a women she needs to be raped and murdered. (That was sarcasm, in case you missed it. This is not the correct way to express disagreement. At all.)

Personally I think that, all fears of succumbing to the feminist agenda aside (also sarcasm), projects like hers are necessary for the video game industry to truly mature. Gamers seem to love talking about the word "mature" a lot, so why do we rebel against actual maturity so much? I think that it's a good thing that she is sticking to her project, all threats aside. And whatever the case, it is ridiculous that people are fighting so hard to shut her up. Why not let her say what she has to say and if, after actually hearing it, you disagree with it, you are well within your rights to say something.

What do you guys think?

PS. As of this writing she has brought in $126,768 of her $6,000 Kickstarter goal. So things aren't completely dire. But this doesn't negate the abuse she has had to (and most likely will continue to) sustain just to get this project moving.

As of today this thread will be locked. What originally was meant to be a thread discussing the soon-to-be controversial Anita videos about female tropes in Video Games grew into something much more. We at Negative World absolutely love a good conversation and we will always encourage mature and respectful conversation. That said, the thread has had it's moments of polarization to the extreme in the past and recently. While at the moment I write this, the thread is rather calm,.. there has been a joint decision by the moderators of this site to close this particular thread down. The thread strayed way outside of the original bounds of it's intent. We have a different idea of how to frame this delicate and polarizing topic at Negative World.

For future installments of Anita's series we will either have a mod create a new official thread for it (as well as posting links to previous episodes) or we will use our already established Youtube Video thread. The latter could have easily been the original home for this thread if it wanted to. Discussion can continue as normal in the future thread but we ask to keep in mind that the topic should relate to Anita's videos and her message. Hear, analyze, and discuss that. This new location for this discussion will be established with the release of her next video. Please find patience till then.

Thank you from all of us at Negative World for understanding.
~ Negative World Moderation

URL to share this content (right click and copy link)
Posted: 06/14/12, 17:58:56  - Locked by 
 on: 08/22/13, 04:37:22    
 
Why not sign up for a (free) account and create your own content?
 
@Anand
Hyper-stylized sounds much fancier than my description. I like it.

Has the press really been bagging on this game though. As far as I have seen they've a) reported on a controversy that came up in the industry and b) commented on their own opinion of the art style when writing a review (seems appropriate). The overwhelming majority of those reviews have been very positive - the game has an 83 on metacritic. For the most part it isn't journalists making a big deal out of this - it's consumers.

Also:


Posted by 
 on: 08/17/13, 16:47:56  - Edited by 
 on: 08/17/13, 16:56:49
@Kal-El814

And thats my point. The best female tennis player ON EARTH can't win a point against Andy Murray, so how is a mediocre female MMA fighter supposed to earn a point on Fallon Fox, formerly a dude?

I think you guys think strawman is a word for "I don't want to talk about that." Some people do. Also, nobody has offered OMW a solution either; you guys just keep doing what he says you're doing. Pussyfoot and dance around without making a commitment. I don't get it.

@Anand

We are living in THE MOST sensitive world possible now. I'm surprised people can even go out in the sun anymore.


Posted by 
 on: 08/17/13, 23:47:45
Mr_Mustache said:

The best female tennis player ON EARTH can't win a point against Andy Murray


OBJECTION!
She has merely speculated that she couldn't win a point in a charming, self-deprecating chat with ESPN. But I guess we'll find out in soon, the two are due to have a charity match in Vegas, Battle of the Sexes style.


Posted by 
 on: 08/18/13, 01:21:05  - Edited by 
 on: 08/18/13, 01:21:47
@Super_Conzo

Oh for crying out loud.. Figure it out with Kal-El (argue amongst yourselves, not both sides with me) and let me know how I'm supposed to comment / what I'm supposed to comment on. Cripes!


Posted by 
 on: 08/18/13, 01:26:24
Mr.Mustache this is what OMW posted way back on the 67th page to start this debate about transgender people.

Oldmanwinter said:
Just out of curiosity, because so many people in this thread have a very progressive mindset, what do you think about someone like Fallon Fox.

While I agree the line between traditional male roles and female roles is blurring, and it's probably for the best (I love to cook and my mom made sure I could do my own laundry while I was still in grade school), there are flat out major genetic differences between men and women. For me this Fallon Fox person is a prime example extreme left left wing ideology coming to pass as acceptable in the mainstream. Fallon Fox is a man who decided he wanted to be a women and in his 30s made it happen. Then he got into MMA and has been kicking the ever living shit out of women. This, fyi, is not a guy who was some sort of phenom athlete, he was an average guy and he's beating women who have been doing this for a very long time. Why? Because his basic physiology is that of a man. My point is "thinking" you are a women does not, contrary to a lot of people in the mainstreams view, make you a women. And vice versa. There are massive differences and some of reasons we have different roles for different sexes is based not on some archaic, misogynistic bullshit but the fact our physiologists are very, very different.

So I guess my question is what do you guys think about this?



Most of what he says in it is bunk. You don't choose to become transgender one day out of the blue. Also she is 5"7 and 144 she is smaller than me by 2 inches but she weighs more than me by about 10.The reason I weigh this much is because of a side effect of some medication I am on if you are curious. Most men athletes are in the 6 foot range or higher. The only 2 I can think of were Muggsy Bogues and Spud Webb. They were 5'3" and 5'7" and played Basketball respectfully. As far as her beating her fights quickly I am going to propose her 3rd fight which went 3 rounds and a submission win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbCID2Gtax0 And also this video of her explaining when she does the estrogen and how she has to do it every day for the rest of her life or some serious medical things may come about is she doesn't take it.She wouldn't put herself through this if she wasn't her true self. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn3o-0poPKI As for his thought that "Thinking" you are a women make you a women that isn't true at all. There is a picture which explains things very simply and it is is The GenderBread Person.Look it up.


To add on to that a little I am going to tell you a little about myself. I love basketball and tennis and football as far as watching it. Playing sports. I like playing Basketball,Baseball and I like to run and do yoga and swim. Now based on that I am slightly more masciline than feminine but lets keep going. Music. Most of my fave musicians are female with a few male ones. Few major female ones are Mariah Carey,Lauren Hill,Mary J Blige,Jennifer Lopez, TLC, and No Doubt among others. Male artists. Will Smith, Eminem, and Michael Jackson. Personally for me gender doesn't matter for music as much as it is the words and the sounds and if I relate to them or if I can dance to them that makes me like them. Based on this some people may say I have to much emphsis on female singers over male but whenever I listen to a male singer I usually don't like what I hear.
Since we are on a video game forum I might as well bring up games. These are the genres I like to play. RPG's, Adventure, Platformers, Survival Horror, 3rd person shooters,1st person shooters, strategy,puzzle,sports. Now on most accounts I think this is kinda the inverse of what is the norm in the industry with a few exceptions but I do enjoy most of the big games but I also go for games that are interesting and are out of the norm or a new IP that mixes things up. I don't think I am the typical gamer sadly. The other thing about me is I treat people decently unless they push me too far then well you are going to hear about it. I am very patient with people usually. Otherwise I am kind and optimistic to everyone. I am a rarity in the gaming community. I would say this right here may be what makes me different from most of my ilk.So this is a a more feminine trait maybe or it could be just a decent human being trait. I would go with the latter imho hmmm!


Now you may be wondering what all that has to do with Fallon Fox? Basically there is many ways to be a person and it isn't only just about what OMW is talking about. What he is talking about is Gender expression if you checked the Genderbread Person earlier. What Fallon Fox is doing in the MMA as a job is just doing what she wants to do in life and being ridiculed for it. Have you ever been judged or bullied for something you liked or something you did or wore or how you looked? Well if you have well then you can relate on some level with Fallon even if you are not a Transgender person. As for how it can be changed Mr. Mustache?

I think the best way is to accept that some people are going to be different and that not everyone is going to file in ONE social construct. It isn't just black and white to everyone. There is grey shades which can be great too. As for moving forward we just have to try and be decent to each other and not tear each other down no matter who we are.


Posted by 
 on: 08/19/13, 00:51:07  - Edited by 
 on: 08/19/13, 00:51:50
@NinTemple_Maxi

I'm not speaking out against Fallon Fox and what s/he wishes to accomplish in life; I just think it is is unfair to other female competitors, and some female MMA competitors think that, too. If Fallon Fox were fighting other TG fighters, I'd have no issue whatsoever. Ronda Rousey mentioned "bone density" pretty much right off the bat. Hormones or not..you can't really get around that stuff, unless you're on something to make your bones thin out. What about hip angle or pelvis width? I know that some girls don't really have "child-bearing hips," but that is pretty much the norm. I don't know. I just want stuff to be "fair." You mentioned grey shades: why not have a "grey division?"

--And a lot of football players are shortish, too. The Bills have a guy right now who is only 5'8, 165 pounds. (How the heck is he going to tackle anyone?) He's fast as S though.. Like..REALLY fast.


As for being judged and bullied, yes, it happens constantly. Check out this site I go to www.negativeworld.org . You would not believe how quickly an unpopular opinion will turn a group of folks on you! (For the record, I think your response was respectful and informative. Didn't get to the GenderBread stuff yet, sorry.)


Posted by 
 on: 08/19/13, 01:23:13
There isn't a Trans MMA division as far as I can tell for MMA. What I meant by grey shades is that you think you know what a person is like but they surprise you with something great or wonderful or unexpected because it breaks the stereotypes that you may or may not have built up with them. As for your point about the hips as you probably know people go through puberty and that is when people go through all changes in the body and their basic shape forms. I will say that hormones can't change facial or bone shape but the is reconstructive surgery for that but it can be pricey.

As for your Bill's cornerback player I looked him up and his name is Nickell Robey. Rookie out of USC. Most of the great Cornerbacks are usually either quick or just use their instincts to do their best on the field on defense. In football it is about leverage and getting low on the guy versus overpowering the guy.

Okay thanks for taking the time to read my long response. Took a while to type up.


Posted by 
 on: 08/19/13, 02:49:16
@NinTemple_Maxi

Well, no, there isn't a division because she's the first. Is she the only transgendered person with an interest in MMA? ..I'm not sure. So, WHY is she allowed to fight? Are there certain parameters besides "she's taken the necessary hormones?" What if I decided that I wanted to be a woman, and I wanted to play sports, too. Keep in mind that I'm 6'3, though the rest of my body is closer to that of a female than a male (slender, spindly fingers, etc.). Would it be fair for ME to compete with these women? I'd be MUCH taller than the average woman. Or, would someone go "oh, thats too tall, no." If thats the case..and I imagine it would be..why is this ok? Just because s/he happens to be shorter than the average male? Thats weird.

Yes, hips widen out with puberty. Female Puberty is something that every female MMA fighter went through..except for Fallon Fox.

I thought it was Marquise Goodwin? Maybe he's a WR. But yes, tiny guy. Is he #41? Some short dude gave up a touchdown the other night. Not sure if he'll make the cut..


And I read everything typed to me (that I see). Always. (That should be taken as "you didn't get special treatment, per se, its just a courtesy I pay everyone who engages in conversation with me," whether it is returned or not. No 'thanks' necessary!)


Posted by 
 on: 08/20/13, 00:27:08
@Mr_Mustache

It's because you're talking about a ridiculous outlier as the basis for general discussion. It would the equivalent of talking about the economic prospects of black Americans but ONLY talking about Oprah Winfrey and Lebron James. Do they exist? Yes. Are they interesting? Yes. Are they useful examples to bring up within a discussion about the general reality of black American economic prospects? Absolutely not because they're so far divorced from the reality of the topic.

And this is all predicated on your comment about a transgender MMA fighter and wondering, "is this what feminists want," which is still one of the most absurd comments I have ever read on this board.


Posted by 
 on: 08/20/13, 02:35:58
@Kal-El814

..Why isn't there a clear answer yet? "Is this what feminists want?" It isn't ridiculous, its a simple question.

Do they want girls FIGHTING GUYS? Or girls fighting FORMER GUYS? Isn't that "EQUALITY" at its most primal?
Or is it more like JKR said (and was criticized instantly for): do they want to be equal where it suits them only?

Do women want to give up Maternity Leave? Do they think guys should get it, too for some reason?
Do women want to kill spiders, build computers, get out and pump gas in the cold, and put together furniture?
Is this what they're/you're fighting for, or is it ALL ABOUT MONEY (as it seems with Zero)?
If its really just "we want more money," but saying "equality" as a way of not sounding greedy...?
(Whenever I mentioned anything blue collar, Zero seemed to turn up his nose; white collar prospects however..)


Simple, SIMPLE questions.


Posted by 
 on: 08/20/13, 03:00:49
@Mr_Mustache
Some simple, simple answers for you, bro.

Do women want to give up Maternity Leave?
No, but they don't want to be discriminated in the work place for it.

is it ALL ABOUT MONEY
Dude, you know it's not ALL about money, but money is such a glaringly obvious problem. I don't need to go into the stats on womens pay and the percentage of top positions held by women for you to know there is a problem. A "Boys-Club" problem. And if that title sounds immature it's because, in most cases, it is.

Do women want to kill spiders, build computers, get out and pump gas in the cold, and put together furniture?
Here, personal relationships come into play. If a curious spider decides to join you and your wife in the living room, you will each know who the most competent spider-remover is. It may be her, it may be you.
Building computers seems waay specific... are you saying women don't build computers? Can't? In fact, all these questions are quite reductionist about the feminist movement. Put it this way, If you've ever heard a grown woman be patronised, dismissed, pandered to or infantalised then you know what this goal is. It is to get to a point where society doesnít automatically assign tasks for men and tasks for women. You are free to assign those tasks in your own relationship, eg. "Mrs Mustache loves assembling new furniture so I just chill in the corner, offering encouragement and brushing my face." As long as you're both happy and fulfilled, then I'm thrilled for you.

This is about an evolution in culture, and we know evolution doesn't happen overnight. So these small steps being taken by Anita to secure stronger, more achievable role models for girls will seem like giant strides in 50 years time.
You get that, right? Tell me you get that.


Posted by 
 on: 08/20/13, 12:06:17  - Edited by 
 on: 08/20/13, 12:57:05
Mr_Mustache said:
Are there certain parameters besides "she's taken the necessary hormones?" What if I decided that I wanted to be a woman, and I wanted to play sports, too.
I'd be thrilled that you chose life as opposed to killing yourself.


Posted by 
 on: 08/20/13, 16:18:12  - Edited by 
 on: 08/20/13, 16:18:44
@Mr_Mustache

No it's not a simple question. You're assuming a simple answer exists for a complicated problem. I've already talked about it ITT. Third wave feminism acknowledges that its issues are broader in scope than the ones faced by earlier feminists. "Let us vote," is a simple message. "Let us own property," is a simple message. Second wave feminism, also known as women's liberation, deals with broader topics, though it's still somewhat easier to focus. Topics like, "violence against women isn't okay," is still a fairly straightforward demand even though it's more nuanced than suffrage.

Modern feminism is broader in scope, and part of the discussion about it deals with its own boundaries.

So your constant insistence that, "what do feminists want" is a simple question is myopic and reductive. Beyond that, it assumes that there is some kind of collectivist idea about what feminism is, and this is incorrect. Equating the desire for equal pay with greed is completely ridiculous.

I can't think of a compelling analogy for the way you're talking about this topic to explain how far your understanding of the topic is from what the reality of the academic field actually is. The best that I can do is explain that the way you're talking about feminism would be like someone coming to this board and talking about how videogames are generally murder simulators that are played to allow pubescent males to live out hyperviolent fantasies, that their raison d'etre is to desensitize children to violence, and that the gaming discussions primarily take the form of racial and homophobic slurs shouted at one another through gaming headsets.

Which we all know is completely ridiculous and off the point. You're in the same position when you're talking about feminism the way that you are ITT.


Posted by 
 on: 08/20/13, 16:32:02
@Super_Conzo@Mr_Mustache

My wife specifically tells me I have to kill spiders, pump the gas, put together the furniture, change the oil in the cars, etc., because it's a man's job.

She's in for a rude awakening when our baby is born. "Sorry, I can't change a diaper. That's a woman's job."

I mostly jest, but I grow tired of her using those lame excuses to NOT do something.


Posted by 
 on: 08/20/13, 17:08:56
@TheOldManFromZelda

My girlfriend can't drive stick so I pump the gas. But she's a bug murderer, loves putting together furniture, was one of five kids so she carries more groceries than should be humanly possible, owns the lion's share of our vinyl, and helped me with my most recent PC build.

It's almost like these broad generalizations from anecdotes that either confirm or reject stereotypes aren't all that useful.


Posted by 
 on: 08/20/13, 17:36:34
@TheOldManFromZelda
Lolz - excuse my ignorance (European alert!) but when you say pump the gas are you referring to the act of putting petrol in your car? There is no physical pumping taking place... right? Surely whoever is driving should pump the gas. That seems to be an unwritten rule over here.


Posted by 
 on: 08/20/13, 18:17:07
@Super_Conzo

DO I KNOW it isn't all about the money? Zero leads in with that constantly. He cites all these things where women are making less than men, and then someone says "women in Toronto make more than guys," and I mention how my wife makes more, and they come back with "anecdotal," so thats what I'm used to here.

And yes, I understand that things are different / unique in each relationship with who fills what roles..so why is there 'blanket feminism' trying to make X happen for all cases? I already make less than Nikki, so that doesn't work. And yes, its COMMON COURTESY for a guy to get out and pump case when its a freakin' blizzard. I can't imagine her going "well, are you going to pump gas?," and I just sit there and go "women equality; do it yourself." Freakin' awful.

What happens with "Women and Children First" in event of emergency? Does that go out the window?


I feel like chivalry is dying, and even on its deathbed, Feminism's Pillow pushes down just a little harder daily.

Guillaume said:I'd be thrilled that you chose life as opposed to killing yourself.

What the hell does THIS mean????? (Are you talking about suicide rates among transgendered?)


@Kal-El814

So, "violence against women isn't okay," but if we're all EQUAL....? Wouldn't, in that case, violence against women be okay? No, I don't want to beat women, or see women beat.

Oh, and videogames basically are murder simulators.. Unless you're playing Catherine, then its a "cheat on your spouse simulator." Furthermore, the sole reason I DON'T play with "random" people online anymore is BECAUSE they shout racial and homophobic slurs. I did a Practice Fantasy Draft the other day on Yahoo, and I was called the N word like 3 times..and I'm extremely white. Oh, America..

TheOldManFromZelda said:
@Super_Conzo@Mr_Mustache

My wife specifically tells me I have to kill spiders, pump the gas, put together the furniture, change the oil in the cars, etc., because it's a man's job.

She's in for a rude awakening when our baby is born. "Sorry, I can't change a diaper. That's a woman's job."

I mostly jest, but I grow tired of her using those lame excuses to NOT do something.

Woo, Lou's Dad's teaching live on!

@Super_Conzo

"Pump the gas" is what you said, yes. I think.. You get out of the car, and you hold the nozzle in the gas tank, and its cold as everloving S outside. Blustery winds, snow in your face, sub-zero temperatures. Meanwhile, your wife sits in her car all toasty. (I don't mind doing this; I love my wife...and if I DON'T do it, I get bitched at for the rest of the night. And I probably miss out on the POSSIBILITY of sex.)


Posted by 
 on: 08/20/13, 23:21:00  - Edited by 
 on: 08/20/13, 23:22:54
Mr_Mustache said:
Guillaume said:
Mr_Mustache said:
Are there certain parameters besides "she's taken the necessary hormones?" What if I decided that I wanted to be a woman, and I wanted to play sports, too.
I'd be thrilled that you chose life as opposed to killing yourself.
What the hell does THIS mean????? (Are you talking about suicide rates among transgendered?)
Yes, I am. I've been lucky enough to know someone at work who's transgender, talked a lot about it with her and saw the entire transition over the years. Phrases like "it was a choice between living as who I truly feel like, or suicide" are common amongst transgender people who decide to live their life as the other gender. Your "what if I decide to be a woman to play sports" statement is absurd compared to the reality of being a transgender person, but I responded to it as I would if this scenario happened in real life: I'd be glad you chose the path that made you happy. And whether it was fair for you to compete in sports or not would be the least of my concerns, or yours.

Can we please move on from the transgender talk? It's not a very helpful tool to talk about feminism. All is does is expose that you don't know what you're talking about.


Posted by 
 on: 08/20/13, 23:30:37
@Guillaume

..is this a strawman thing? I don't call people out on those at all.

I was simply responding to Maxi about TG women / former men "in sports," and what makes that acceptable. Is there some sort of cut off? "I'm sorry, Janet, your muscle content is far too high." You've turned this into a "suicide rate among the TG" deal. As important as it may be, it is wholly irrelevant to anything we've been talking about. A TG woman fighting a natural woman affects "women" directly, a formerly male guy struggling with identity generally doesn't. In fact, I know that a lot of women don't care about and look down on TG women ESPECIALLY in the Adult Industry. Are there exceptions? Certainly.

I don't think its fair of you to say that I don't know what I'm talking about; I know that the suicide rate is pretty darn high. Just because you know someone personally doesn't make you an expert on the subject. How do you know what I know?


Posted by 
 on: 08/20/13, 23:39:38
@Guillaume

Suicide could be the alternative to anything. "I'm out of milk, so either I go to the store or kill myself."

I don't mean to make light of it, but it's a crappy way of rationalizing something. Your only options are "live as who I FEEL like" or "kill self?" Nobody is setting those standards but you, and that is bogus that you have no other options but two extremes. Bogus.

I get that people hurt and want the easy way out, heck I've been there myself, but it's such a horrible, selfish thing to even consider. You leave behind everyone else to pick up the pieces. I don't buy that "these are my two options and nothing else" stuff.


Posted by 
 on: 08/20/13, 23:40:35
Browse    68  69  70  71  72