The short story is that Anita Sarkeesian of Feminist Frequency has started a Kickstarter to explore the stereotypes of females in video games. Or well, why not just hear it in her words?

I love playing video games but I’m regularly disappointed in the limited and limiting ways women are represented. This video project will explore, analyze and deconstruct some of the most common tropes and stereotypes of female characters in games. The series will highlight the larger recurring patterns and conventions used within the gaming industry rather than just focusing on the worst offenders. I’m going to need your help to make it happen!

The longer story is that because she is a self-proclaimed "feminist" (what this means in her case I'm really not sure, since everyone interprets this label differently when applying it to themselves) that anything she does somehow automatically becomes super controversial, and she has received rape threats and death threats and attempts to shut down this project from (primarily) male gamers. Because obviously if you disagree with feminism the way to get your point across is to tell a women she needs to be raped and murdered. (That was sarcasm, in case you missed it. This is not the correct way to express disagreement. At all.)

Personally I think that, all fears of succumbing to the feminist agenda aside (also sarcasm), projects like hers are necessary for the video game industry to truly mature. Gamers seem to love talking about the word "mature" a lot, so why do we rebel against actual maturity so much? I think that it's a good thing that she is sticking to her project, all threats aside. And whatever the case, it is ridiculous that people are fighting so hard to shut her up. Why not let her say what she has to say and if, after actually hearing it, you disagree with it, you are well within your rights to say something.

What do you guys think?

PS. As of this writing she has brought in $126,768 of her $6,000 Kickstarter goal. So things aren't completely dire. But this doesn't negate the abuse she has had to (and most likely will continue to) sustain just to get this project moving.

As of today this thread will be locked. What originally was meant to be a thread discussing the soon-to-be controversial Anita videos about female tropes in Video Games grew into something much more. We at Negative World absolutely love a good conversation and we will always encourage mature and respectful conversation. That said, the thread has had it's moments of polarization to the extreme in the past and recently. While at the moment I write this, the thread is rather calm,.. there has been a joint decision by the moderators of this site to close this particular thread down. The thread strayed way outside of the original bounds of it's intent. We have a different idea of how to frame this delicate and polarizing topic at Negative World.

For future installments of Anita's series we will either have a mod create a new official thread for it (as well as posting links to previous episodes) or we will use our already established Youtube Video thread. The latter could have easily been the original home for this thread if it wanted to. Discussion can continue as normal in the future thread but we ask to keep in mind that the topic should relate to Anita's videos and her message. Hear, analyze, and discuss that. This new location for this discussion will be established with the release of her next video. Please find patience till then.

Thank you from all of us at Negative World for understanding. ~ Negative World Moderation

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@Guillaume

I initially thought half tuck was an idiom I didn't know. Then I got it. SMH@myself

@roykoopa64

Honestly I don't think that treatment is specific to the game industry. Obviously there's an extent to which things have gotten better but when I go to meetings (again, anecdotes; abandon hope all ye who enter) the glass ceiling is obvious. I'll hear people talking to men about certain things with a baseline assumption of competence, then their female colleagues get asked incredibly basic preamble questions, like, "have you ever done this before," shit that I have NEVER IN TEN YEARS heard ANYONE ask a guy. It's bonkers.

Posted by

Kal-El814

on: 06/18/12, 23:07

Edited:

06/18/12, 23:11

@Guillaume

Obviously an honest perspective, there, and she has my sympathy. But my attitude is that a woman who has to say "Let Me" about being treated equal is actually being pretty damn weak. She should have told that guy, "I'll fucking eat you piece by piece in this shooter, asshole. You think I don't know what I'm doing? I can headshot a Covenant Grunt from a mile away. WASD for life! Now let me do my job without the 19th Century little-lady patronizing routine, cowboy."

He'd know the score, then.

There's no reason to remain polite in those situations. She shouldn't care if anyone calls her shrill or touchy or whatever, because she'd have just made progress for women in these circles. She'd have shocked one lightweight, patronizing asshole into treating the rest of the women at E3 with a little baseline respect.

That's how you change things. Not getting your feelings hurt and then sobbing about it on a blog a few days later.

Be strong, sisters! Take no crap off nobody.

Posted by

kriswright

on: 06/18/12, 23:36

@kriswright

While I don't disagree, women perceived as being bitchy aren't especially well received either. And if I was a journalist, at least somewhat dependent upon my relationships to receive invites, information, and interviews, I might elect to be condescended to in favor of burning bridges.

Posted by

Kal-El814

on: 06/18/12, 23:48

@kriswright Well, she wouldn't have to be that rude, but the article certainly presented her as being kind of unassertive, for sure. Regardless of how she handled it though, her criticism of having constant assumptions made about her, based on gender, are valid.

Posted by

nacthenud

on: 06/18/12, 23:51

Edited:

06/18/12, 23:52

@Kal-El814

Well, then I'd say the same thing to you, my friend. Stick up for yourself. It's surely not a choice between burning bridges and getting kicked around. I was obviously exaggerating the response, but she still could have been firm and final about it without risking, you know, never being invited back to E3 or whatever.

Anyway, no journalist worth their salt is going to take patronizing crap off of their subject in exchange for access. This cozy relationship between journos and developers... that's a grumpy harangue for another time.

Posted by

kriswright

on: 06/18/12, 23:53

@Koovaps I dunno, I just don't think the attitude of "stop whining" is appropriate. It's not "whining" to tell your story to a larger public. Nor do I think her writing is "passive aggressive".

Also the name. NegativeZero? COME ON.

@kriswright Alright, but not everyone is like this in public. Do you at least agree that it shouldn't really be on her to make these changes? Realistically it is, but I'm asking if it should be. Like, why isn't there a base level of respect between human beings that we can just assume?

Either way I think it's not fair to attack her writing this after the fact. Sometimes in these situations you don't really know how to react, and it doesn't come to you until later that made you should have reacted. Then your choices become "say something about it now" or "forget about it" or maybe "invent a time machine to go change history". Presuming that option 3 is still impossible, I think option 1 is the best option.

Actually I think writing is a very powerful weapon. And the fact that this is getting passed around the Internet now means it will possibly have much more of an influence than her simply trying to argue with one guy at the show.

Posted by

Zero

on: 06/18/12, 23:56

Edited:

06/19/12, 00:02

@kriswright

I think I tend to agree more with the people in the comments saying the onus of changing things is not on the one victim but on all of the people who treated her that way. Besides, maybe she's been more combative in the past but is tired of fighting? I mean, one of the guys in the comments said the same thing: "you shouldn't have taken shit from those people, I know I wouldn't, of course it helps that I'm bigger than them". I mean, the guy has probably absolutely no idea what it is to be condescended to day in, day out.

I had the same reaction myself, reading the article: "Man, I really would have said something if I were her". But I'm not her, and if I were, it probably wouldn't have been a problem as easy to solve as it seems from here.

edit - And you also have to consider the environment she was in, too. I can't imagine E3 as a whole makes women feel welcome. As she looked around her and saw only men everywhere, she probably didn't feel she'd get a ton of support if she made a scene.

Posted by

Guillaume

on: 06/18/12, 23:57

Edited:

06/19/12, 00:01

@Zero
@Guillaume

Due respect to you guys. But ask Emmeline Pankhurst if the onus was on the men around her to come to their stupid senses and give her the right to vote. Ask Susan B. Anthony. Ask Lucretia Mott. Hell, they're all dead. Ask Gloria Steinem! Ask Helen Thomas! Ask any woman with a "Women Who Behave Rarely Make History" bumper sticker.

To be clear, obviously my little fictional tirade was over the top. I did that for comic effect. I don't think anyone has to be that cruel to get what they want.

But, you see, my attitude is that equality for women isn't going to be achieved by a bunch of men like us sitting around talking about it and agreeing to be nice to the little ladies. It's going to be achieved when women look men in the eye and challenge their patronizing assumptions. Because, let's face it, most men don't look down on women. Not really. But what we do is fall into comfortable gender role patterns that have been established since long before we were born. That's not going to just change organically with sensitive guys like us taking the lead. It's going to change when women demand it.

I do agree, at least, that talking about it on her blog is better than doing nothing. It has the potential to change some minds, and that's a good thing. But ending it with the phrase "Let Me" is what I mostly object to. That's a weak way to ask to be treated with basic human decency.

Posted by

kriswright

on: 06/19/12, 00:10

Edited:

06/19/12, 00:13

This is a new era though, Internet press can and does change things. Heck, we basically forced Nintendo to release games it wasn't going to release in North America through the Internet despite some people telling us it was a waste of time because the Internet changes nothing. And I'm not sure how much your examples apply to this situation, at least as far as people suggesting she should have "stuck up for herself", because those people were fighting for actual changes in law (for the most part), there are millions upon millions of women who have to deal with things every day that law can't really touch. What is she going to do, stand on the steps of Congress and demand that video game events treat women equally?

Anyway I agree that the ideal would have been to do something about it in person. I don't agree that she is wasting her time now nor "whining" about it nor that she deserves people getting all negative on her and being monday morning quarterbacks. God knows I've been in many situations where the obvious things to do and say came to me... way after the fact.

Posted by

Zero

on: 06/19/12, 00:23

People with that kind of strength are rare, though, and I just can't blame her for not showing more when, in similar situations, I probably wouldn't either. I know I've held my peace (piece?) in public before when I disagreed with the majority and didn't think I'd get much support.

Posted by

Guillaume

on: 06/19/12, 00:25

@Mr_Mustache I like this kind of funding. It's a research project that requires a lot of time to compile. It's not like the government is funding this, even though they fund some awful, awful research projects. This at least, is a subject that is really interesting, and allows us to reflect on the issue and be more observant of it.

Whether that's $158,000 worth of time is another thing, though she admittedly does have some very fancy video equipment.

How does Kickstarter work exactly? Could she just pack it up and leave with all these people's money?

Posted by

PogueSquadron

on: 06/19/12, 00:27

@Zero

Immediately after I posted that, I went back and edited a few extra sentences into my final paragraph. I think we're on the same page, for the most part, about the value of the blog. It's still a positive thing, in the end. But I still maintain that the tone of it was all wrong. Speaking as a man, it awakens that part of me that wants to protect her, not the part of me that wants to treat her like an equal. That can't have been the idea.

And, no, every woman doesn't have to be a Pankhurst to make a difference. Every problem doesn't have to be solved by the law. But one patronizing man learning his lesson and treating women as his equals is a good place to start. I'm sure most feminists throughout history would agree.

Posted by

kriswright

on: 06/19/12, 00:28

Edited:

06/19/12, 00:28

Zero said:

This is a new era though, Internet press can and does change things. Heck, we basically forced Nintendo to release games it wasn't going to release in North America through the Internet despite some people telling us it was a waste of time because the Internet changes nothing.

Agreed. Which is why Operation Moonfall is so important. Apparently, Miyamoto is listening.

With regards to the main topic, I have skimmed the 7 pages that are here and I have to say, I am very disappointed in our fellow gamers. Rape and death threats, towards a fellow female gamer? Seriously? What is wrong with these people?!?! It's too bad the internet is so anonymous. If this happened in any other forum, these people would be prosecuted. These kind of threats are not to be taken lightly.

If anything, our fellow gamers should be happy that there are women out there that share in their passion. I know I am. I get very excited when I meet a fellow female gamer who plays games like Ocarina of Time and Castlevania because I have more in common with them than most other people out there. Sometimes I even get bothered when I see a stereotypical female character in games. That's why I'm happy we have Samus, Alexandra Roivas, and even Lara Croft (when she's not being used as a sex symbol). I'm not going to lie here and say that I don't like beautiful women in bikinis, but I like my women with personality and brains.

I don't know if it has been mentioned but the Twilight movies have done a great disservice to both men and women. I once read of a guy who was dumped by his girlfriend because he wasn't like Edward. A lot of women now want their men to either be super buff like Jake or super creepy like Edward. And don't get me started on Bella. The actress is beautiful, but her character's personality is so vacuous. Does she even have a personality? In the second movie, for example, when Edward leaves her abandoned in the middle of the forest (seriously), she spends months screaming in her room because of her pain. Afterwards, she brings herself almost to the brink of death, just so she can feel close to Edward. Not only this, but she is willing to abandon all of her friends, family, life, sunlight, and garlic (just kidding), just so she can live forever with the creepy old pedophile in a 17 year old's body forever.

Since she got so much money for her Kickstarter, she should try to land interviews with voice actresses such as Jennifer Hale and Tara Strong. One of the questions I would ask them is "What can developers do to give female characters in videogames a strong, realistic, and un-stereotypical role?

Posted by

sirmastersephiroth

on: 06/19/12, 00:50

kriswright said:

Because, let's face it, most men don't look down on women. Not really. But what we do is fall into comfortable gender role patterns that have been established since long before we were born. That's not going to just change organically with sensitive guys like us taking the lead. It's going to change when women demand it.

My brain thinks more along these lines. I realize I may be looking at the wrong end of this, but sometimes there are misunderstandings. Is there a chance this PR guy previously dealt with several women who, in fact, didn't know what they were doing? Maybe not, and even if he did, his assumption is wrong, but possibly less Sexist? Maybe he would have felt terrible had he only been told and corrected. That's why I think saying something is generally the better path, though I completely understand that that's easier said than done.

Posted by

Koovaps

on: 06/19/12, 01:07

@Guillaume

Yeah, thats pretty rotten.


TO BE FAIR, TRUE STORY: I was the only one in San Fran at EA who didn't lie about playing sports games.
Anand = eye candy.


"No wonder we’re seeing it filter down into the developers, who implement in-game achievements for looking up the skirts of 19-year-old women dressed like schoolgirls."

An achievement for that? Really??? This is "unbelievable," not the "oh goody!" horndog me. Ridiculous.3

@kriswright

He'd toootally know the score.


EDIT- Another thing about that, we didn't get it from the other side. Maybe that guy had JUST watched a girl struggle and struggle after swearing that she knew what she was doing? I've seen this happen at my job when I've trained people before. I've flat out asked someone if they understood something, they tell me "yes," I say "are you sure?" and they say "yes." I say "show me," and they stare blankly, turn, and stare blankly to do the wrong thing. Stuff happens.

But yeah, she should've stood up for herself. How about a simple question: "does it look like I'm struggling?"

Posted by

Mr_Mustache

on: 06/19/12, 01:17

Edited:

06/19/12, 01:26

It's probably not cool to admit this here in this thread, but I like playing games with sexy women who are scantily clad and move in seductive ways with their enhanced jiggle-physics and brainless giggles. I do. I'm a 35 year-old man with a wife and 4 children and (when they're not watching) I enjoy that sort of thing from time to time. Oh - and I watch porn too. And if I were staying at a friend's house and they had a Playboy magazine sitting on their coffee table and they went out for a while, I'd likely look through it. And I'd enjoy doing so. And honestly, I think that's ok.

Of course, I enjoy games that have strong, realistic female characters too. And movies with the same. I like them and am even attracted to them for completely different reasons. And I respect at least as many real-life women as real-life men.

If I'm being honest, I don't want the scantily-clad adventuring eye-candy women to disappear from gaming entirely. If I'm being more honest - I have bought games BECAUSE of the eye-candy. When I play a game like Soul Calibur, I'm going to go into the character creator mode and I'm going to see just how naughty of a character design I can put together. Of course, I'm going to create tastefully-clothed versions of both genders as well, but I'll be darned if the first thing I check out isn't the undergarment options they allow me to reduce the women to.

But I think there is a place for that, and there is a place for the more realistic portrayal of a human female. The type of game you're making should tell you which is which. Balance is important here and there needs to representation on both sides of the equation in the industry.

Posted by

nacthenud

on: 06/19/12, 01:43

@nacthenud, right there with you. I really like looking at pretty ladies, of all shapes and sizes. Balance is important.

Posted by

Koovaps

on: 06/19/12, 01:55

kriswright said:

Because, let's face it, most men don't look down on women. Not really. But what we do is fall into comfortable gender role patterns that have been established since long before we were born. That's not going to just change organically with sensitive guys like us taking the lead. It's going to change when women demand it.

Hmm, I dunno... I think both are important. Like, when you're hanging out with a group of guys and some dude mentions some girl he "banged" or something, do you speak up or stay silent? I think it is actually pretty important for guys to see that not ALL guys are totally cool with treating women that way (I'd imagine most aren't, we're just not used to speaking up around our friends), and I think the best role models for males will often be their other male friends. Just sort of working to foster a better environment towards females overall? And then yeah, of course females have to work at it as well. But men are definitely in the positions of power in most cases and can have an awful lot of influence.

Posted by

Zero

on: 06/19/12, 02:14

@Zero

Sometimes "banged" is just a synonym for "made love to," just as I don't think "chick" should be criticized as much as it is. Its not like we're saying "bitch" instead of "chick." I can see "bitch" or even "broad" as a no-go.

Do you really get upset about "banged?"

Posted by

Mr_Mustache

on: 06/19/12, 02:17

Really? Banged = made love to now?!

So these same guys would feel perfectly comfortable using that language in front of the girl in question? "Hey, wasn't it awesome when I banged you last night?"

Yeah, I think that's an iffy word. Of course there can be a context where it is ok. Like a couple who have a pretty firm understanding of the fact that they mean something to each other who like using words like that for one reason or another. Context is key.

But if some guy is talking about some chick he banged, I'm generally assuming he isn't talking about making love to a girl he has a strong connection to, no.

Actually though, personally I don't even like the term made love to. Made love with seems more accurate, right? Unless a guy really sees it as him doing something to someone else, and not with them.

Going back to the lame guy bragging about scoring though, I think 9 times out of 10 he will choose a term that is to and not with. Because really in most cases, to him, that act was about his own experience, not a shared experience.

Posted by

Zero

on: 06/19/12, 02:33

Edited:

06/19/12, 02:38