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Tropes Vs Women in Video Games, Somehow a Controversy? (+ general gender / video game discussion)
[locked]
News reported by 
Editor-in-chief
June 14, 2012, 17:58:56
 
The short story is that Anita Sarkeesian of Feminist Frequency has started a Kickstarter to explore the stereotypes of females in video games. Or well, why not just hear it in her words?

I love playing video games but Iím regularly disappointed in the limited and limiting ways women are represented. This video project will explore, analyze and deconstruct some of the most common tropes and stereotypes of female characters in games. The series will highlight the larger recurring patterns and conventions used within the gaming industry rather than just focusing on the worst offenders. Iím going to need your help to make it happen!

The longer story is that because she is a self-proclaimed "feminist" (what this means in her case I'm really not sure, since everyone interprets this label differently when applying it to themselves) that anything she does somehow automatically becomes super controversial, and she has received rape threats and death threats and attempts to shut down this project from (primarily) male gamers. Because obviously if you disagree with feminism the way to get your point across is to tell a women she needs to be raped and murdered. (That was sarcasm, in case you missed it. This is not the correct way to express disagreement. At all.)

Personally I think that, all fears of succumbing to the feminist agenda aside (also sarcasm), projects like hers are necessary for the video game industry to truly mature. Gamers seem to love talking about the word "mature" a lot, so why do we rebel against actual maturity so much? I think that it's a good thing that she is sticking to her project, all threats aside. And whatever the case, it is ridiculous that people are fighting so hard to shut her up. Why not let her say what she has to say and if, after actually hearing it, you disagree with it, you are well within your rights to say something.

What do you guys think?

PS. As of this writing she has brought in $126,768 of her $6,000 Kickstarter goal. So things aren't completely dire. But this doesn't negate the abuse she has had to (and most likely will continue to) sustain just to get this project moving.

As of today this thread will be locked. What originally was meant to be a thread discussing the soon-to-be controversial Anita videos about female tropes in Video Games grew into something much more. We at Negative World absolutely love a good conversation and we will always encourage mature and respectful conversation. That said, the thread has had it's moments of polarization to the extreme in the past and recently. While at the moment I write this, the thread is rather calm,.. there has been a joint decision by the moderators of this site to close this particular thread down. The thread strayed way outside of the original bounds of it's intent. We have a different idea of how to frame this delicate and polarizing topic at Negative World.

For future installments of Anita's series we will either have a mod create a new official thread for it (as well as posting links to previous episodes) or we will use our already established Youtube Video thread. The latter could have easily been the original home for this thread if it wanted to. Discussion can continue as normal in the future thread but we ask to keep in mind that the topic should relate to Anita's videos and her message. Hear, analyze, and discuss that. This new location for this discussion will be established with the release of her next video. Please find patience till then.

Thank you from all of us at Negative World for understanding.
~ Negative World Moderation

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Posted: 06/14/12, 17:58:56  - Locked by 
 on: 08/22/13, 04:37:22    
 
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@Super_Conzo

She has a 3-0 record at the moment. Her last match was a submission win in the 3rd round.


Posted by 
 on: 08/13/13, 11:29:28
@Mr_Mustache I don't know anyone who complains about everything. I think you're seeing that whatever it is, someone is complaining, and wondering why people are complaining about "everything", when it's different people every time. Most people have their own pet issues or whatever and don't get super involved in much else. In fact, isn't one of the complaints leveled against Anita is that she is too narrow in what she complains about?

"Society" shouldn't do anything, society is just a word for a bunch of people. People are all different. Not everyone is going to want to tell everyone to stop complaining, especially if they agree with the complaints, as many do. It almost feels like your logic is "if *I* don't care about this issue, why should anyone else?" But that's very self-centered. And I know you don't like seeing it in these terms, but as a straight white male it's also a lot more convenient for you to continually take this position than it is for others.

Anyway, when I said that I don't think the issue is about everything being good for everyone, I mean it. It's not just that everyone wants everything for themselves. It's when it's stuff that is clearly just playing on sexist gender roles and such that people start to complain, doubly so if it is for a product that doesn't actually have much to do with gender anyway. Like that Dr. Pepper Ten thing, Dr. Pepper Ten isn't lipstick, it's a soda. Pushing your soda as male-only makes you look pretty openly exclusionist.

@Oldmanwinter I don't know too much about this but I think in the next 100 years we're definitely going to have to re-evaluate binary gender, so we may as well get started thinking about the best ways to do it, because what are isolated cases now will become more common in time.


Posted by 
 on: 08/13/13, 12:25:25  - Edited by 
 on: 08/13/13, 12:27:43
NWR Connectivity just did a second discussion segment on the Tropes VS Women in Gaming thing. Interesting to listen to. I feel like this thread has evolved into a general women's issues/perceptions/etc thread and strayed from the gaming aspect of itself. So if you want gaming-related discussion, you can find it here.


Posted by 
 on: 08/13/13, 13:50:52


These Yorkie Adverts used to be hilarious. They used to be widely quoted, girls used to come up to us with one bragging that they were eating a Yorkie and girls could eat them too. Great marketing strategy back then if you ask me.


Posted by 
 on: 08/13/13, 14:44:44  - Edited by 
 on: 08/13/13, 14:47:38
@Oldmanwinter
I'm all for personal freedom, but that's horseshit.


Posted by 
 on: 08/13/13, 18:19:29
NinTemple_Maxi said:
I just want to point out something. She knew she was transgender since she was 17 so this isn't really a thing she came to terms with just recently. As far as the level playing field I want to bring something up. Male to female transgender women lose muscle mass because of the hormones that they are on and so essentually they are actually weaker then cisgendered females because they have their testostone and estrogen not as balanced as cisgendered women so they have to improve on their technique to get good.

Yeah. I keep hearing this. Then I watch the fights and I find it impossible to believe. Secondly Fallon Fox is 38 years old. She got into MMA at like 35 and is now a professional athlete? That doesn't happen. Mind you she was a fucking truck driver previously, not some pro or amateur male athlete. Not even when she was younger. You don't find it somewhat odd that a 38 year old, non athlete male can walk into a professional women's' sport with little training and dominate? At all?

This, in my opinion, is not someone who is at a strength disadvantage. I mean Jesus, just look at the way he/she moves compared to the woman in the ring:



Super_Conzo said:
Oldmanwinter said:

Then he got into MMA and has been kicking the ever living shit out of women.


Lolz - you make it sound like a dude just threw on a wig and started tearing into women. I'm pretty sure there is a crap ton of training involved, and let's not forget that Fallon has been approved by the MMA. This athlete meets the physical standards... and that is AFTER the testosterone blockers have worn away her previous (man) muscle.

But hey, it's a really good talking point. All we can do is speculate. The experts will decide.
Does anyone know if she has lost a fight? I can't seem to find the stats. Not that I have any real interest in MMA

Again. Fallon Fox is 38. Fallon Fox was never an athlete and got involved in MMA in her mid 30s. She is beating women ten years younger with vastly more experience. And again, Fallon Fox was a truck driver with no athletic background of any kind. You honestly don't find the hyperbole that she is just more skilled or even at a disadvantage due to her surgery somewhat hard to believe given the facts?

@Zero

If your definition of "re-thinking binary gender" is allowing men to have surgery and then go beat up women I'm going to disagree with you. That is not something that needs anyone to think about longer than fifteen seconds to draw a proper conclusion.

I find the Fallon Fox thing incredibly interesting because I really can't imagine that many people, no matter how liberal or progressive they are being OK with this. Beyond the fact its bizarre to want to become a women and then go beat them up, it creates a conundrum for the crowd, such as yourself, that thinks "because I feel this way, I am this way". Maybe emotionally however like Mrs/Mr Fox obviously shows there are some major genetic differences between men and women. I don't think society as a whole should have to make believe that Mr./Mrs Fox is competing on the same level as the real women hes fighting against because he obviously isn't.


Posted by 
 on: 08/13/13, 22:29:33  - Edited by 
 on: 08/13/13, 22:31:56
I dunno, diet soda is advertised towards women all the time.

I think the Dr. Pepper 10 thing was supposed to basically be a tongue in cheek kind of a thing. Of course soda isn't only for men. That's why their ads were so overtly geared towards men. I thought it was so over the top that it shouldn't really have been taken seriously at all. Just look at the commercial Stache aired. They're just poking fun at the fact that sodas (and advertising in general) is always geared at what we think the 'typical' man or woman is.


Posted by 
 on: 08/13/13, 22:54:01  - Edited by 
 on: 08/13/13, 22:58:49
@Oldmanwinter All I'm saying is that there is going to be a point where simply thinking in terms of "male" and "female" won't work anymore for a significant portion of the population. At some point. We're going to have to figure out how to deal with this as a society. I didn't say "letting men beat up on women" is the answer at all, but we're going to have to figure something out.

I also never said "because I feel this way, I am this way" is the answer to gender. Not sure why you are attributing this line of thought to me.

@PogueSquadron I would get into this deeper but there is a line of thinking that says as long as sexism / racism / etc. are so obviously over the top that no one can take it seriously, it's ok because it's obviously a joke... and another line of thinking that says well, no, it's still racism and sexism and a lot of people find it funny precisely because they find racism and sexism funny. I think there are some arguments for the former but generally I fall on the side of the latter.


Posted by 
 on: 08/13/13, 23:33:50
Personally I thought those ads were dumb. I never thought their argument of parody was that apparent. It felt more like they were trying very very hard to sell to men. I took it seriously because I think making a drink gender specific on a national campaign level just isn't appealing. Then again, I used to watch J.D. order his Appletini's on Scrubs. Maybe that neutralized me.


Posted by 
 on: 08/13/13, 23:48:31
@Oldmanwinter
Fallon became a woman in 2006 and has started fighting in 2013, she has potentially been training for years to get this good so the fact that she was a non-athletic truck driver 7 years ago seems irrelevant.

Now I might not think what Fox is doing is cool, but if she feels this is her calling surely she has the right to fight in the appropriate women's division (featherweight)? Hey, do we know if her 3 opponents were actually any good or were they just fodder like you would feed to an up-and-coming boxer? Y'know, has she fought a real player?


Posted by 
 on: 08/14/13, 01:10:11
@Zero

Well, those are your words (~"I don't care, why should anyone else?"). I never said that.

And as for Dr. Pepper TEN, I can't remember the last time I saw the 'light and airy' Three Muskateers marketed towards men. Its a freakin' candy bar.

@warerare

My favorite, haha. I love Yorkie, too! So chocolatey!! (Embedding disabled by request )

@Oldmanwinter

My God, when is the Cyborg Superfight? I bet that sells...

And like you, I'm shocked that every single person in this thread isn't up in arms about that. Nothing says "female equality" like a GUY coming to your gender and beating your ass. Haha, thats WHY there is a Women's Division...so women don't have to fight men.

@Zero
@DrFinkelstein

But...the "sexism" in the commercial is ""demeaning"" to men (the target audience)...unless you're talking about -- (please don't be talking about this) -- the got-to-be-the-smallest-sliver-ever of women who enjoy ACTION MOVIES, and feel offput by the commercial because of that. Like Gui pointing out that girl who keeps score at baseball..thats just..it DOESN'T HAPPEN.

In any event, if you're female and want to buy Dr. Pepper TEN, I'm pretty sure you won't be turned away at the cash register. (In actuality, Dr. Pepper Ten was created because a good amount of guy don't want to be seen drinking a "Diet" drink. Dr. Pepper gave these guys an avenue to do this, and what is the result? MASS HYSTERIA.)

--For crying out loud, the guy yells "CATCHPHRASE!!"...


Posted by 
 on: 08/14/13, 01:48:44
@Mr_Mustache

I never said I was offended or anything. I just said that they are stupid. I understood what they were going for and I felt it was a poor way to sell a product. Not funny or entertaining to me.


Posted by 
 on: 08/14/13, 01:51:40
@DrFinkelstein

I didn't say YOU were offended; I'm talking about the women who complained. "HEY, I LIKE ACTION MOVIES, HOW DARE THEY!?" In reality, I'm sure they were more upset by the fact that a product was being marketed somewhere else. Just drink normal Dr. Pepper, ladies; is that so hard? And Dr Pepper TEN is essentially Coke Zero..right? But with 10 more calories? Ah well.

Sorry the ad completely missed you.


Posted by 
 on: 08/14/13, 01:54:32
@Mr_Mustache

I'm sorry your sorry about that, lol. I could give two shits in the end. I'm just saying I don't think it's a very good ad and does a bad job of targeting both gender demographics.


Posted by 
 on: 08/14/13, 02:16:23
@DrFinkelstein

How does this do at targeting both gender demographics?



Posted by 
 on: 08/14/13, 02:21:54
I think that's a pretty funny commercial. Though it doesn't make me want to eat the yogurt. I could see it appealing to a woman though since they might link finding John Stamos attractive with good yogurt and thus try the yogurt.


Posted by 
 on: 08/14/13, 02:24:43
Mr_Mustache said:
@Oldmanwinter

That is allowed? The Transgender guy in the Female division?? Wow..that is....--is this what Feminists want?

As a very..."not Feminist," that is WHOLLY UNACCEPTABLE to me.

If this isn't a joke, this is honestly one of the saddest posts I have read on this board.


Posted by 
 on: 08/14/13, 02:29:43
@DrFinkelstein

Eh, some would say "sexist." Imagine the roles reversed; guys drinking beer and having frumpo housewives turn into supermodels. "Funny," right?

@Kal-El814

What?? You WANT to see a woman fight a woman-who-used-to-be-a-man? In what world is that fair, Kal?

The entire situation is disgusting, "rights" or not. No way in HELL should any of that be allowed.
"Well who does she get to fight then!?" Not women! It doesn't make SENSE.


Here, lets ask Ronda Rousey, a female-born MMA fighter and champ, what she thinks:



Well, if SHE thinks "it's an advantage," everyone here saying otherwise is probably wrong.
(And I was GOING to mention bone density earlier!! WOW!!)

Listen to Ronda, people. Listen to Ronda.


EDIT- No duh, Ronda Rousey could beat the S out of me. Just thought I'd make that clear.


Posted by 
 on: 08/14/13, 02:39:25  - Edited by 
 on: 08/14/13, 02:47:54
Transgender males fighting women aside, I would say it's better to not just treat women as equals, but to actually think about them as equals. That was a hurdle that I had to overcome personally, but now that I do, it feels right. Women aren't princesses that need rescued (I often wanted to be that hero). They're just like men, with hopes, desires and dreams, with just as much right to persue them and to do so independently.


Posted by 
 on: 08/14/13, 03:24:54
What has happened to this thread since I was last here...


Posted by 
 on: 08/14/13, 03:36:22
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