The short story is that Anita Sarkeesian of Feminist Frequency has started a Kickstarter to explore the stereotypes of females in video games. Or well, why not just hear it in her words?

I love playing video games but I’m regularly disappointed in the limited and limiting ways women are represented. This video project will explore, analyze and deconstruct some of the most common tropes and stereotypes of female characters in games. The series will highlight the larger recurring patterns and conventions used within the gaming industry rather than just focusing on the worst offenders. I’m going to need your help to make it happen!

The longer story is that because she is a self-proclaimed "feminist" (what this means in her case I'm really not sure, since everyone interprets this label differently when applying it to themselves) that anything she does somehow automatically becomes super controversial, and she has received rape threats and death threats and attempts to shut down this project from (primarily) male gamers. Because obviously if you disagree with feminism the way to get your point across is to tell a women she needs to be raped and murdered. (That was sarcasm, in case you missed it. This is not the correct way to express disagreement. At all.)

Personally I think that, all fears of succumbing to the feminist agenda aside (also sarcasm), projects like hers are necessary for the video game industry to truly mature. Gamers seem to love talking about the word "mature" a lot, so why do we rebel against actual maturity so much? I think that it's a good thing that she is sticking to her project, all threats aside. And whatever the case, it is ridiculous that people are fighting so hard to shut her up. Why not let her say what she has to say and if, after actually hearing it, you disagree with it, you are well within your rights to say something.

What do you guys think?

PS. As of this writing she has brought in $126,768 of her $6,000 Kickstarter goal. So things aren't completely dire. But this doesn't negate the abuse she has had to (and most likely will continue to) sustain just to get this project moving.

As of today this thread will be locked. What originally was meant to be a thread discussing the soon-to-be controversial Anita videos about female tropes in Video Games grew into something much more. We at Negative World absolutely love a good conversation and we will always encourage mature and respectful conversation. That said, the thread has had it's moments of polarization to the extreme in the past and recently. While at the moment I write this, the thread is rather calm,.. there has been a joint decision by the moderators of this site to close this particular thread down. The thread strayed way outside of the original bounds of it's intent. We have a different idea of how to frame this delicate and polarizing topic at Negative World.

For future installments of Anita's series we will either have a mod create a new official thread for it (as well as posting links to previous episodes) or we will use our already established Youtube Video thread. The latter could have easily been the original home for this thread if it wanted to. Discussion can continue as normal in the future thread but we ask to keep in mind that the topic should relate to Anita's videos and her message. Hear, analyze, and discuss that. This new location for this discussion will be established with the release of her next video. Please find patience till then.

Thank you from all of us at Negative World for understanding. ~ Negative World Moderation

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@nacthenud I don't think it is the equivalent to rewinding back to the boobies scene though, because as you said, you went back and replayed the scene and many other non-nudity-related ones. This is how interactive media works, if there are choices, people are naturally curious about them. I mean, depending on how much they get into the game. I honestly didn't care enough about the game to go back and replay anything in it, but I know a ton of people did.

But... even back with Choose Your Own Adventure books, didn't you want to see how all of the endings played out? Even when you could tell certain choices were obviously stupid choices?

Heck, I remember purposely dying in different ways in Resident Evil 4 just to see the various death animations.

Gamers are naturally curious. If something is part of the game, even if it is "failing" at the game, we will want to see it. And if that happens to be boobies, it's tough to claim that you're not pandering to people who want to see boobies.

Posted by

Zero

on: 06/20/12, 04:04

Edited:

06/20/12, 04:04

Zero said:

I don't think it is the equivalent to rewinding back to the boobies scene though, because as you said, you went back and replayed the scene and many other non-nudity-related ones. This is how interactive media works, if there are choices, people are naturally curious about them. I mean, depending on how much they get into the game. I honestly didn't care enough about the game to go back and replay anything in it, but I know a ton of people did.

Ok, maybe a better analogy is a movie with a set of deleted scenes. Or alternate endings.

Or instead of just rewinding to the boob scene, you also rewind to some of the other action scenes.

The fact that one of the outcomes is that she ends up taking her bra off doesn't invalidate the scene as suddenly being all about getting to see boobs. That may happen as part of the scene, but it's not the goal of the scene or solely why it's there. It's doesn't come off as a cheap, gratuitous nude scene, but rather a scene with purpose as part of the story and deeper intent. A lot moreso than most nudity in movies, I would argue. At least, that's how I felt about that scene.

Zero said:

But... even back with Choose Your Own Adventure books, didn't you want to see how all of the endings played out? Even when you could tell certain choices were obviously stupid choices?

Sure, but not on my first read-through where I'm trying to get the good ending. Not sure how this relates to whether or not the nudity in that scene was gratuitous pandering or part of a legitimate story piece.

Zero said:

Heck, I remember purposely dying in different ways in Resident Evil 4 just to see the various death animations.

Gamers are naturally curious. If something is part of the game, even if it is "failing" at the game, we will want to see it. And if that happens to be boobies, it's tough to claim that you're not pandering to people who want to see boobies.

I completely disagree. Just because one possible outcome is that she ends up showing her breasts as a result of your failure to save her from that fate, does not mean that the scene is suddenly invalidated as nothing but pandering to people that want to see boobs. By that logic your whole argument about mature sexuality in Girl With the Dragon Tattoo must have been nothing more than pandering. I mean, you got to see boobs, so that was clearly just pandering to people that want to see boobs, right? Wrong.

Posted by

nacthenud

on: 06/20/12, 04:43

What is the "goal" of a video game though? That's kind of a complicated question. I'd argue that it's almost a meaningless question. What matters is the way that players will naturally play it.

Whatever the case, I still maintain that they knew exactly what they were doing. That whole section was a "tease" and many (most?) players will naturally want to see where it leads to.

Posted by

Zero

on: 06/20/12, 04:52

@Zero

Gui wants to get facehugged.

Posted by

Mr_Mustache

on: 06/20/12, 05:04

@Zero
Well David Cage would tell you that the point of his games are to tell a story and expand the palatte of emotions games can create in the player. To take you beyond the "primal emotions" that most games go for and move you into "social emotions".

Posted by

nacthenud

on: 06/20/12, 06:29

Edited:

06/20/12, 06:30

A follow-up on the story I posted earlier. Maybe it will help us all get some more perspective.

Posted by

Guillaume

on: 06/20/12, 16:56

Tropes vs MovieBob

Posted by

nacthenud

on: 06/20/12, 23:31

@Guillaume

Her story in the classroom with people her age is not the same relationship she would've had with the PR guy. I think everyone in college talks to each other like that, more or less.

--Having your ass checked out (simply looked at) is a problem?? I'm sure unattractive women everywhere would trade places with that SO FAST. For the record, I have NO PROBLEM with ANY WOMAN checking me out. Look all you want ladies (just make sure you get permission from the Mrs_ before you touch).


"Read that piece of yours for Kotaku. Katie, you’re better than Kotaku. They’re the Herald Sun of gamer news. You can do better.

This is a Facebook message from one of the aforementioned guys I went to uni with – and unfriended – years ago"

So, this same guy who apparently treated her poorly in her classes is now telling her that she can do better (TWICE)? Sounds like deep down (not even THAT deep) he cares for her, and he feels bad for the way she was treated, or what she's doing now. I don't detect sarcasm in there at all. Could it be that when they were calling her a "crazy bitch" and asking "is it that time of the month" that they were just, I dunno, fraternizing with her? Maybe some people were malicious with what they were saying, but theres also a chance that those guys were treating her as an equal? Maybe she didn't understand because she's a girl, and girls aren't built for those types of things? That is how guys fool around. I was in the wrestling business for years, and I've seen much worse done to each other between friends. Thats how guys do things. If she can't handle that guys are going to act like guys in a "guy's world" (videogames), that moves even further that she/girls don't belong there. What happened to "roll with the punches?" Boxing, another guy thing.

I dunno, the more I read about this, the more I'm reminded of how naive I was when I was younger and I didn't pick up on signals that girls liked me until examining it 10-15 years later. What Katie here cries foul about (the school/"uni" stuff) might be the equivalent to someone giving her a noogie, hurtz donut, or an Indian Burn.


EDIT- And I just finished reading the "gaslighting" article, too. Man. *sigh*, you know what I'm going to say.

Girls ARE more emotional than guys. Why is this so hard for people to accept? Furthermore, PMS, believe it or not, is EXTREMELY real, and it happens (the same type of things happen when people are super-hungry or haven't got enough sleep. Big f'n deal.). Just freakin' accept it, people. Don't compare "every day guys" to a 1944 movie where we're trying to get people locked up so we can steal jewelry. Sometimes a question is just a question. NO, I'm not f'n gaslighting you right now.

Posted by

Mr_Mustache

on: 06/21/12, 01:05

Edited:

06/21/12, 01:38

Mr_Mustache said:

Could it be that when they were calling her a "crazy bitch" and asking "is it that time of the month" that they were just, I dunno, fraternizing with her? Maybe some people were malicious with what they were saying, but theres also a chance that those guys were treating her as an equal?

Calling a woman a bitch is the absolute opposite of treating her as an equal.

Mr_Mustache said:

If she can't handle that guys are going to act like guys in a "guy's world" (videogames), that moves even further that she/girls don't belong there.

Do you even understand the logic of what you're saying? The only way it works is if you assume that gaming is exclusive to men, which is the entire point of her article, Anita's video series, and this thread. We're trying to get away from that.

Posted by

Secret_Tunnel

on: 06/21/12, 03:05

@Secret_Tunnel

What about calling a buddy "fag" or something? Stuff like that happens (I don't do it, but it happens). What is the equivalent of verbal horseplay?

I fully understand what I'm saying. Videogames are traditionally a guy's world, we've all acknowledged that, that is why this project has arisen. I'm fully aware. But if she, a girl, wants to integrate, and doesn't like the status quo or can't keep up with it, that means that the ENTIRE industry has to change? Perhaps one person, or a handful of people should get thicker skin to run with the big dogs? I understand how what I'm saying might seem insensitive, but if I were trying to break into a traditionally female industry, like, I dunno, fashion or something?, I wouldn't expect them to change for me, or men as a whole (and I am aware there are male designers, both straight and gay, just as there are female videogame players).

Posted by

Mr_Mustache

on: 06/21/12, 03:12

Mr_Mustache said:

What about calling a buddy "fag" or something?

No.

Mr_Mustache said:

I fully understand what I'm saying. Videogames are traditionally a guy's world, we've all acknowledged that, that is why this project has arisen. I'm fully aware. But if she, a girl, wants to integrate, and doesn't like the status quo or can't keep up with it, that means that the ENTIRE industry has to change? Perhaps one person, or a handful of people should get thicker skin to run with the big dogs? I understand how what I'm saying might seem insensitive, but if I were trying to break into a traditionally female industry, like, I dunno, fashion or something?, I wouldn't expect them to change for me, or men as a whole (and I am aware there are male designers, both straight and gay, just as there are female videogame players).

So you're telling me that the video game status quo is for men to call women crazy bitches and go out of our way to make them feel unwelcome in the gaming world (“Hey, can we get a guy teaching this class?”)? And you're comfortable with that? Because I'm not. So, yes, I do want the entire industry to change, because what you just described sounds like one of the most evil industries I've ever heard of.

Posted by

Secret_Tunnel

on: 06/21/12, 03:23

Edited:

06/21/12, 03:23

@Mr_Mustache

Posted by

Scrawnton

on: 06/21/12, 03:25

@Secret_Tunnel

No what? Friends can't call friends what they want to??

Did I say the videogame status quo was to call women crazy bitches? I don't believe I did. If anything, I said that that is how life is in college, because that is how life is in college. I went to college, I know what its like. I went to high school, I know what its like. Did you see the video off the link in the daily thread where 12-15 year old berated that school bus monitor? I wouldn't even START to think about talking to ANYONE like that, male or female, of any race, age, or sexual orientation. None of this has to do with videogames.

Why is it hard to accept that some people are just "assholes?" I don't think that "hey, can we get a GUY teaching this class" is a solid representation of ALL men, ALL students, or ALL videogame players. That guy sounds like a cock. He probably has a stupid loud car with no muffler, tinted windows, and an aftermarket spoiler where there doesn't need to be one.

That guy in the class has NOTHING to do with the industry. "He's just a jerk" is the best way we can put it.
What about the guy who sent her that message saying she could do better? Sounds like a good enough dude to me.
She doesn't think so, because she defriended him years ago. Hmm.

--I don't know if it was a nationwide story, but a coupl'a years ago some guy tried to get a job as a waiter at Hooters. They wouldn't allow it, and he sued. Where do we draw the line on bending for people?? A girl wanting to play videogames isn't even in the same universe as a guy wanting to work at Hooters, but maybe if we work backwards from "absolutely ludicrous," we can find somewhere to draw the line?

EDIT- Hooters guy article (2009). Absolutely ridiculous.

Posted by

Mr_Mustache

on: 06/21/12, 03:30

Edited:

06/21/12, 03:50

Mr_Mustache said:

No what? Friends can't call friends what they want to??

"Fag" is offensive and you shouldn't say it.

Mr_Mustache said:

None of this has to do with videogames.

Why is it hard to accept that some people are just "assholes?" I don't think that "hey, can we get a GUY teaching this class" is a solid representation of ALL men, ALL students, or ALL videogame players. That guy sounds like a cock.

It does have to do with videogames. No, it's not a representation of ALL gamers. But it is a representation of a general attitude towards women in gaming culture. You just said that the game industry is a guy's world and that if a woman can't roll with the punches that will come to her from being in our world, she should leave. The only thing that that cock with the stupid loud car was doing is holding up that system of oppression.

Mr_Mustache said:

--I don't know if it was a nationwide story, but a coupl'a years ago some guy tried to get a job as a waiter at Hooters. They wouldn't allow it, and he sued. Where do we draw the line on bending for people?? A girl wanting to play videogames isn't even in the same universe as a guy wanting to work at Hooters, but maybe if we work backwards from "absolutely ludicrous," we can find somewhere to draw the line?

Hooters is a restaurant designed for straight men (and lesbians I guess?) to stare at women. Gaming is a medium designed for absolutely ANYONE (except for people with certain disabilities, which is unfortunate) to have interactive experiences in.

Certain games will target men, just like certain restaurants will target men. No one is arguing that men shouldn't be allowed to work at restaurants, just like no one is arguing that Gears of War should appeal to women.

Posted by

Secret_Tunnel

on: 06/21/12, 03:51

Edited:

06/21/12, 04:05

Ok.

I believe this girl's story regarding the horrors of here college experience about as much as I believe most woman who claim to have been raped after a heavy night of drinking, when you willfully decided to go home with a guy and take off all your clothes. Yeah, I went there. I graduated with a degree that was at a minimum 90% men. I never saw anything like that happen. The college system is inherently incredibly tolerant. If anyone, in any class I ever had would have stood up and demanded a male teacher they would have been kicked out. That kind of shit doesn't fly.

Posted by

Oldmanwinter

on: 06/21/12, 04:06

@Secret_Tunnel

*sigh*, I wasn't saying it gets thrown around all the time. Now we're back to policing words, words between two (or more) heterosexual friends in closed quarters without the chance of effectively offending anyone? Maybe we need to change the definition of fag so we can stop this. Should friends not call each other bitch either? Apparently now. How should we goof around? "Hey, you silly!" Cripes, rub some dirt on it.

There are horrible people in every group of people; heck, I'm CERTAIN that people think I'm being TERRIBLE for typing the things I'm typing, which is ridiculous. I'm not saying women have no right anywhere, or belittling them, or whatever. They can play videogames, sure, but I don't think (yes, I'm a GUY) that the "establishment" should have to "accommodate" them. Is that what "strong, independent women" want? The guys letting them do something? The guys to change for them? I don't think Rosa Parks was like "hey, let me sit here." She was like "I don't freakin' care, I'm sitting here." Good on ya, Ms. Parks.


Like Hooters, aren't some games designed for straight men to stare at women (ie: Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball Extreme)? Those are the same games being cited in here as offensive and the overuse of women for sex appeal purposes only. Sooo...are we saying "thats ok" then, for SOME games?? I thought "we" wanted ALL games to not show women in that manner? Whats the scoop?

And yes, I'm aware that some people have a problem with Hooters, too. You know who probably doesn't have a problem with Hooters? The people a) working at Hooters and b) eating at Hooters.

Posted by

Mr_Mustache

on: 06/21/12, 04:12

Mr_Mustache said:

I'm fully aware. But if she, a girl, wants to integrate, and doesn't like the status quo or can't keep up with it, that means that the ENTIRE industry has to change?

Wow.

But yeah, if the status quo is completely problematic, it should change. Honestly I don't get the whole "boys club" mentality anyway. Anything I'm interested in, I'd like to share with my girlfriend. And she shouldn't have to fight to feel welcome.

I hope you're not going to ask us to accept the status quo of online gaming either. If we don't like a bunch of teenagers calling us fags and teabagging us, that's our problem?

Mr_Mustache said:

Is that what "strong, independent women" want? ... The guys to change for them?

Actually plenty of strong, independent women want guys to "change" for them if they are currently treating them poorly. That's what this is about. It's not just about females trying to be accepted in a culture that they don't understand or something. It's about men treating women poorly. The writer of the article wasn't even asking for special treatment or anything, she was basically asking to be treated the same as every other journalist.

Journalist, mind you. These aren't the 15 year olds on Xbox Live, these are professional interactions in our industry.

@Oldmanwinter To be honest you have told stories of your younger days that are hard for someone like me to believe because I have never, ever seen anything like them... but I don't assume you are lying. I just assume that you hung around different people than I did.

Posted by

Zero

on: 06/21/12, 04:29

Edited:

06/21/12, 04:35

@Zero

Hey man, me, too! Nikki has her own Wii. I take her everywhere (football games, NW meetup, etc). When people are drinking beer and swearing behind us at a game though, I don't say "pardon me, can you please keep it quiet for m'lady is present." I did almost sock someone in the face at a concert though because they started a mosh pit right near us. That was a safety issue though. We both left the place fine afterwards, "wow, what a bunch of idiots." We have a lot in common.

--People being huge assholes online is a totally different thing. No, I don't want smelly little teenagers calling me names online. Thats why I play Nintendo. Again, that isn't "videogames," that is a group of people. Those people are like the Taliban. Is the Taliban representative of every remotely Middle Eastern civilian?

Posted by

Mr_Mustache

on: 06/21/12, 04:35

@Oldmanwinter

I hope you're right!

Mr_Mustache said:

*sigh*, I wasn't saying it gets thrown around all the time. Now we're back to policing words, words between two (or more) heterosexual friends in closed quarters without the chance of effectively offending anyone? Maybe we need to change the definition of fag so we can stop this. Should friends not call each other bitch either? Apparently now. How should we goof around? "Hey, you silly!" Cripes, rub some dirt on it.

I agree we should change the meaning of fag! I was even going to link to that episode. "Faggot" is such a nice, biting word... it would be really nice if it was an insult without any connotation to it. But it's not that simple. If I get called a faggot or a bitch, I'm not offended by it. I hardly get personally offended at anything, ever. The problem is that calling someone a fag is insulting them by calling them gay, as if being gay is something to be ashamed of. Same thing goes for the word bitch.

Mr_Mustache said:

There are horrible people in every group of people; heck, I'm CERTAIN that people think I'm being TERRIBLE for typing the things I'm typing, which is ridiculous. I'm not saying women have no right anywhere, or belittling them, or whatever. They can play videogames, sure, but I don't think (yes, I'm a GUY) that the "establishment" should have to "accommodate" them. Is that what "strong, independent women" want? The guys letting them do something? The guys to change for them? I don't think Rosa Parks was like "hey, let me sit here." She was like "I don't freakin' care, I'm sitting here." Good on ya, Ms. Parks.

In a perfect world, Rosa Parks wouldn't have had to do that in the first place. Look at it this way: we, as male gamers, are the bus drivers. It's our duty to accept women into the game industry. I don't know where you're getting the idea that these women enjoy having to fight for their rights.

Mr_Mustache said:

Like Hooters, aren't some games designed for straight men to stare at women (ie: Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball Extreme)? Those are the same games being cited in here as offensive and the overuse of women for sex appeal purposes only. Sooo...are we saying "thats ok" then, for SOME games?? I thought "we" wanted ALL games to not show women in that manner? Whats the scoop?

I'm not sure what the right answer is. I don't have a problem with those games existing. Heck, certain feminist bloggers had a problem with Fat Princess, and I think they overreacted. It's more than the individual games... it's the overall attitude towards women in the gaming culture. We're in a weird transitional period right now where we're going from an 18-35 year old male-dominated industry to an industry that's for everyone. If we want to be open to everyone, we need to temporarily stop making a ton of games about bikini girls. But then we're not appealing to the audience that wants to play games about bikini girls. It's sort of a Catch-22.

It's the people that matter most. The most important thing is that we, as gamers and as men, are respectful of female gamers.

Posted by

Secret_Tunnel

on: 06/21/12, 04:39

@Mr_Mustache I'd say being an asshole online is a huge part of the current gaming culture's status quo. But that doesn't mean we should accept it. Because it's problematic. It's kind of silly to say "something is wrong but that's just the culture so outsiders have no right to speak up".

I don't really get the asking people at a baseball game to stop swearing thing, because no one is asking for women to be treated like porcelain dolls. If anything this girl was asking to be treated equally.

A better example would be if you brought Nikki to let's say... a meet-up for some video game site (theoretical, I don't know of any actual sites that do meet-ups, that'd be insane!), and everyone acted like she didn't deserve to be there because she was a GIRL and gaming is a MAN'S WORLD. Statistics prove it! And then everyone acted in ways that made it clear that she wasn't very welcome. And every time she wanted to play someone grabbed the controller from her to show her how to because well, she's a girl, WTF would she know about video games, she obviously needs a man to guide her. Or maybe no one offered to let her play at all because why would a girl want to play video games, that's just silly, they're for men.

And then for good measure maybe they all sat around talking about how much they love banging sluts.

And then Nikki felt bad. Would you be like hey, buck up woman, you knew this was a GUY'S THING so what were you expecting? Or would you maybe think the jerkoffs at this totally theoretical site's meet-up should perhaps have treated your wife a bit better?

Posted by

Zero

on: 06/21/12, 04:44

Edited:

06/21/12, 04:48