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The Legend of Zelda Timeline AND YOU!!!
by 
NW Staff
Editor
February 11, 2011, 02:32:49
 
Why is it that we love Zelda? The puzzles, the wacky characters, the BOSSES!? I'll tell you what I love about it- the story. While at first glance it might seem like most of the Zelda games have fairly simple plots, the overall web of how all the games connect keeps dedicated fans constantly coming up with new theories on the chronology of the Zelda franchise. Jumping right in can get overwhelming- but I'm here to help.

THIS IS:





Basic Knowledge
Before you can even think about thinking about the Zelda Timeline, there are a few things that you should know:

-All Zelda games take place in the same universe.
-Every game released has some sort of reference to another game in the series.
-The CD-i and BS Zelda games are not canon.
-There are multiple Links and Zeldas.
-There are at least two incarnations of Ganon.
-The Triforce's location/owner/status varies from game to game.
-Skyward Sword is the first game in the timeline.

Remember those!


The Official Zelda Timeline
Originally, this editorial laid out a theoretical timeline. Nintendo has since revealed the official Zelda timeline in the 25th Anniversary Hyrule Historia Zelda art book. Here is the full timeline, translated:


Nintendo's timeline doesn't perfectly match the one I had come up with- in fact, no one had guessed that the timeline would split into three branches. The only major difference between the Hyrule Historia timeline and the one I had put together is the placement of the Four Swords games. I said that Four Swords Adventures is a prequel to A Link to the Past showing the origin of Ganon, with Four Swords as a direct prequel to Four Swords Adventures. Four Swords Adventures' new placement makes sense; however, placing Four Swords directly after Minish Cap contradicts Four Swords Adventures' prologue, where it is implied that Four Swords took place only a few years prior to Four Swords Adventures. Despite this, I'll be using Nintendo's timeline for the rest of this editorial.

The Split
One of the most significant events in the entire Zelda universe is the ending of Ocarina of Time. After saving Hyrule and sealing Ganondorf away, Link is sent back in time by Zelda using the Ocarina of Time. Link appears standing in front of the Master Sword as a child. He then goes to Hyrule Castle to meet with young Zelda, just like at the beginning of the game. Since Zelda is still in Hyrule Castle, Link had to have been sent back in time to before he first opened the Door of Time- yet the Door of Time is open anyway.

What all this complicated time travel mumbo-jumbo boils down to is the Timeline Split. Back in the Hyrule that Link saved as an adult, Zelda, the Sages and the citizens of Hyrule go on living in peace until The Great Flood. This is known as the "Adult Timeline." The Hyrule that Link goes back in time to is known as the "Child Timeline." Upon meeting Zelda, Link warns her that her plan to stop Ganondorf will not work, and that they should wait until he makes a wrong move and reveals himself. Eventually, Ganondorf is caught, put on trial, and sealed in the Twilight Realm, as seen in Twilight Princess. Meanwhile, Link journeys to Termina and saves the land from Majora's Mask.

Now that the official timeline has been revealed, we've found out that the timeline splits off into a third branch at the end of Ocarina of Time. While the other two branches exist together as alternate universes, the third branch is a "What if?" scenario, taking the place of the Adult Timeline and preventing the Child Timeline from ever coming into existence. The third timeline allows for Ocarina of Time to act as the backstory for A Link to the Past- the Hero of Time is killed in the final confrontation with Ganon, leading to the Imprisoning War, where Ganon is sealed away by the seven sages.

Before Nintendo revealed the official timeline, one of the hottest points of timeline debate was whether there was a split or not. For some of the arguments for and against the split, check out this post.


The Official Timeline Explained
After looking at Nintendo's official timeline, you might have a few questions. In this section, I've put together a more in-depth version of the timeline to shed some light on the gray areas.

*Hyrule and the Triforce are created by the three goddesses, Din, Farore, and Nayru.*

*Skyward Sword's Backstory: Civilization advances to a point where intelligent robots exist. Demise attacks Hyrule and wipes out nearly all humans- the survivors are sent to the sky on a chunk of land that would later be known as Skyloft. The godess Hylia defeats and seals away Demise.*

Skyward Sword- The Master Sword is created and humans return to the surface. Before being sealed into the Master Sword, Demise prophecizes that his evil will return again and again in a never-ending cycle.

*Hyrule is founded once again. Hundreds of years pass.*

*Minish Cap's Backstory: The Picori create the Picori Sword and give it to a hero to seal away Hyrule's monsters.*

Minish Cap- Monsters are re-released into Hyrule. The Picori Sword is broken and reforged as the Four Sword. The Wind Sorcerer Vaati is defeated.

*Some time passes.*

Four Swords- Vaati breaks free of the Four Sword and kidnaps Princess Zelda (It is unclear whether Vaati was sealed in the Four Sword at the end of Minish Cap or sometime later). Zelda’s childhood friend, Link, saves her and seals Vaati back in the Four Sword.

*Hundreds of years pass.*

Ocarina of Time- The Split.


Adult Timeline

Ocarina of Time- The Triforce is broken into three parts. Power goes to Ganondorf, Wisdom to Zelda, Courage to Link. Ganon is defeated by Link and sealed away in the Sacred Realm. Link is sent back in time to his childhood. The Triforce of Courage is shattered and scattered across Hyrule.

*Wind Waker's Backstory: Ganondorf breaks free. Hyrule is flooded by the gods. Hundreds of years pass.*

Wind Waker- Ganondorf is killed. The Triforce is reassembled. Hyrule is washed away for good. Link and Tetra (Zelda) set out to find new land to settle on.

Phantom Hourglass- Craziness ensues on a high seas adventure with Link and Tetra.

*Link and Tetra find new land. They call the new land Hyrule and found a new kingdom. A hundred years pass.*

Spirit Tracks- A new Link saves Hyrule from an ancient demon.


Child Timeline

Ocarina of Time- After being sent back to the past, Link warns Zelda that Ganondorf plans to take over Hyrule, and that the best course of action would be to do nothing.

*Twilight Princess' Backstory: Ganondorf is eventually caught, trialed, and sealed away in the Twilight Realm.*

Majora's Mask- Link goes off to the Lost Woods on Epona to search for an old friend (presumably Navi). The Skull Kid steals Epona and the Ocarina of Time. Link follows the Skull Kid to Termina and finds out that in three days, the moon will crash into the earth and kill everyone.

*About a hundred years pass.*

Twilight Princess- Ganondorf, still stuck in the Twilight Realm, takes advantage of a power-hungry young Twili named Zant. Zant and Ganondorf invade Hyrule, only to be killed by a new Link.

*Some time passes.*

Four Swords Adventures- A mysterious Shadow Link causes some ruckus at the Four Sword shrine. A new Link and Zelda go to investigate. Link draws the Four Sword, releasing Vaati from his seal, and goes off to save the maidens of the shrine. Eventually Link finds out that Shadow Link and Vaati were just distractions. The real threat is a young Gerudo named Ganondorf, who stole an ancient trident and underwent a transformation into Ganon. Link kills Vaati and seals Ganon in the Four Sword.


Failure Timeline

Ocarina of Time- Link dies in the final battle against Ganon.

*A Link to the Past's Backstory: After the Hero of Time's death, the Imprisoning War began. No one was able to weild the Master Sword and kill Ganon, so he was sealed in the Sacred Realm (now the Dark World) by the sages. Some time passes.*

A Link to the Past- A priest named Agahnim tricks the people of Hyrule into putting him into a position of power. He captures the seven maidens (including Zelda) descended from the Sages who imprisoned Ganon. A new Link recovers the Master Sword and finds out that Agahnim was just Ganon's pawn. Link ventures to the Dark World, rescues the maidens and kills Ganon. Upon killing Ganon, Link finds the Triforce and wishes for all of Ganon's influences to leave Hyrule, sending the world into a period of peace and prosperity.

*Some time passes.*

Oracle of Ages / Oracle of Seasons- A new Link journies to Hyrule castle and sees the Triforce. It transports him to a foreign land that is being threatened by a new villian, either Veran or Onox, depending on which game is played first. It is eventually revealed that this new villian is just a pawn of Koume and Kotake, two of Ganon's most loyal followers. Their master plan is to revive Ganon- but of course, Link stops them and kills their bastardized half-revived Ganon. His work done, Link sets off on a boat.

Link's Awakening- Link's boat crashes and he lands on a strange island.

*Some time passes.*

*Zelda II's Backstory: Long story short, the Triforce of Courage is hidden away in the Great Palace and Princess Zelda is put under a sleeping spell. More time passes.*

The Legend of Zelda- A new Zelda is captured by Ganon (this is the same Ganon from A Link to the Past, but it isn't explained how he was resurrected). Ganon steals the Triforce of Power; Zelda manages to shatter the Triforce of Wisdom and scatter it across the land of Hyrule. A new Link sets out to recover the pieces of the Triforce of Wisdom, rescue Zelda, kill Ganon and get the Triforce of Power back. He does.

*A few years pass.*

Zelda II: Adventures of Link- Link finds out about the sleeping Zelda. The only way to break the spell is to use the Triforce of Courage in conjunction with the other two pieces of the Triforce. Link sets out to recover the Triforce of Courage from the Great Palace. Meanwhile, followers of Ganon try to kill Link and use his blood to revive Ganon. They fail, Link succeeds. The Triforce is whole again.


The Future of the Legend of Zelda Series
So where does Zelda go from here? All of the loose ends left by Ocarina of Time have been tied up, and the Old Hyrule, along with nearly every single important plot item, is lost in the Adult Timeline. A sequel to Spirit Tracks would need a new villian and new plot that has nothing to do with the Triforce. That is, unless the Triforce and Master Sword somehow come back.

A sequel to Four Swords Adventures would make the most sense at this point; Ganon is still sealed in the Four Sword in that timeline. Besides, who wouldn't want a Wii U or 3DS online Four Swords game?

Skyward Sword has opened up a whole new onslaught of possibilities for the next Zelda game. We could have a series of prequels taking place in the technologically advanced Hyrule that the Timeshift Stones gave us a glimpse at, or we could have a direct sequel that ties up a few of the loose ends from Skyward Sword.


What Else is There?
Now you know all there is to know about Zelda, right? WRONG! The Zelda universe is rich with unsolved mysteries. Take a look at any Zelda fansite. There are constant discussions and analyses about even the most obscure facts. Why did the Zoras evolve into birds, but the Gorons just stayed the same? How many groups of sages are there, and how are they connected? Why are there giant phallic pillars in Majora's Mask? The list goes on and on. So get out there and start analyzing!

Special thanks to the Zelda Wiki for remembering what I didn't and Triforcebun for making the banner art. And thank YOU for reading! Be sure to read the comment thread for a lot of great discussion!

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Posted: 02/11/11, 02:32:49  - Edited by 
NW Staff
  on: 05/17/13, 08:46:18    
 
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Secret_Tunnel said:
To me, the whole reason for the split is Zelda sending Link back in time in a different way than Link had been doing it. Because you're right, if Link changed something without a split timeline then the timeline would just be overwritten. I guess I view the two timelines as not really two possibilities, but two seperate universes.

It makes me wonder, though. If it is a single timeline, then Link would have to live through Ganon taking over Hyrule, knowing there's nothing he can do about it.

So you're suggesting that Zelda not only sent Link back in time, but she also sent him into a different universe then, right? So did that happen in MM as well every time Link went "back in time"? Also, what happened to the Link that was already in the past that future Link was sent back to?

As for the single timeline deal, yeah, if Link stayed in Hyrule he'd have to live through Ganon taking over Hyrule (though we don't really have any clear indication that he ever came back to Hyrule after leaving to search for Navi), but he would know that he was going to save Hyrule rather than believing only that there was nothing he could do.

Secret_Tunnel said:
Except it says the WW Link has "come of age." Now, he's obviously not an adult. But I don't see why they would celebrate child Link as the Hero of Time when he only theoretically saved Hyrule. It wasn't until adult Link showed up that any saving actually got done. I would think that adult Link would have upstaged child Link at that point. It could be that on Outset Island kids are considered adults at an earlier age. It's hard to tell when we don't know exactly what ages all the young Links are (OoT Link seems about 11, WW Link seems about 14 or 15, other than his voice).

Regarding the whole "It wasn't until adult Link showed up that any saving actually got done", that's exactly my point. If the adult Hero of Time was the only person who did anything heroic (as would be the case in the split timeline), then they shouldn't have celebrated the child Hero of Time as the legendary hero. However, that wasn't the case. TWW doesn't only say that TWW Link had "come of age". Link's grandmother also said:

"Today is a day to celebrate! It is the dayvthat you become the same age as the young hero spoken of in all the legends."

So Link's grandmother and all of the people of Outset Island are confirming that TWW Link was the same age as OoT Link, and they're celebrating the "young hero" as the hero of legend. They're celebrating child OoT Link, and only the child Link who left Hyrule and ended up in Termina became celebrated as a hero. The child OoT Link who had never time traveled was NOT celebrated as a hero until he grew up, so TWW obviously isn't referring to him.

Secret_Tunnel said:
It was a surprise attack. Everyone trusted him, so when he struck no one had any clue what was going on. Once he revealed himself and lost the element of surprise, I'm sure all the races of Hyrule could have banded together to take him down.

I doubt all the races of Hyrule banded together. After all, we're told in TP that Ganondorf invaded Hyrule in its back story. So once again Ganondorf was the attacker, AND he had a bunch of men with him this time. So it's the same situation except that Ganondorf has more men, and he's invading (which is something OoT Ganondorf never did). It just seems like a pretty sizeable difference for the exact opposite expected outcome to occur.

missypissy said:
Now I can't remember where I got the idea that it was "beyond time". Ocarina of Time just states that his spirit has been stuck there for 7 years until he became of age. Plus Ganondorf breaks out a hundred or hundreds of years later in Wind Waker and hasn't seemed to age at all from what we could tell. Though it is called a parallel world countless times...now I doubt myself!!!

Yeah, Ganondorf's lack of age is the only thing that seems to support the realm being outside of time, IMO. Then again, Twinrova lived to be 400, and they still thought of themselves as being young. Maybe being magical allows you greater youth (and it's possible that TWW takes place less than 400 years after TWW). Still, maybe the Triforce of Power kept him young, despite lack of any great evidence towards it giving the bearer any real power.

Abdooooo said:
As much as I'd want it to all flow together, is it really that crazy to state each game is just a reinterpretation of a basic idea? Young boy goes out on an adventure, discovers new lands, people, powers, and evil. In the end he faces true evil knowing he is the one to do it. I remember watching the GT Zelda timeline series and thinking, "it shouldn't be this hard to piece together a legitimate story". That said, I still really enjoy all of the ideas that come about talking about the timeline.

Man, I don't know how GT managed to screw up the timeline so much in that video, but it was just awful... full of incorrect information, illogical assumptions... they even left a game out! It's really not that difficult a concept.

After all, almost every game was made with another game in mind. AoL was made as LoZ's sequel. ALttP was made as LoZ's prequel. LA was made as ALttP's sequel. OoT was made as prequel based on ALttP's back story. MM was made as OoT's sequel. TWW was made as OoT's sequel, taking place hundreds of years later (as opposed to MM's "months") and finishing out OoT/TWW Ganondorf's storyline. FSA was made as a sequel to FS and a prequel to ALttP (at least originally; that point it one of the debatable ones right now, but it still fits well enough as a prequel to ALttP). TMC was created as a prequel of sorts to FS and FSA. TP was created as a sequel to OoT, taking place about 100 years later in the same Hyrule. PH was created as TWW's sequel. ST was created as PH's sequel.

That gives us a timeline of OoT, MM, TP, TWW, PH, ST, FSA, ALttP, LA, LoZ, and AoL, with TMC taking place some time before FSA. The only games that weren't made with another game explicitly in mind as far as timeline placement goes are FS and arguably the Oracles (all games made by Capcom). However, FSA tied FS into place (since they only take place "years" apart from one another), and there are enough details within the Oracles games to place them fairly easily.

So really the only points of debate available are whether the Oracles take place after LA or after AoL, whether FSA still stands as a strong enough prequel to ALttP to remain there or if it fits better elsewhere, where TMC fits, and the single/split timeline debate. 4 questions. 4 points of debate are all that's really left if you've paid attention to the details.

chrisbg99 said:
Frankly as much as I love the Legend of Zelda, I'm not sure why people stress out so much about the timeline. Just enjoy the games.

Stress? Secret is exactly right. Figuring out the timeline is part of the fun. It's not stressful, especially when most of it is pretty straightforward. To anyone who actually pays attention to the evidence, there's only a few points that can really be debated.


Posted by 
V_s
  on: 02/14/11, 04:01:23
I sort of don't care about how the timeline fits together, and frankly, I don't think Nintendo does either. Or I should say, I don't think they did, and I don't think they had any real plans for connecting it all until their fans started clamoring for answers and they got put on the spot.

Not to say it's not an interesting read. I'm just saying that personally, I don't worry about these things when playing a Zelda game.


Posted by 
Zero
  on: 02/14/11, 04:06:06  - Edited by 
Zero
  on: 02/14/11, 04:06:46
V_s said:
So you're suggesting that Zelda not only sent Link back in time, but she also sent him into a different universe then, right? So did that happen in MM as well every time Link went "back in time"? Also, what happened to the Link that was already in the past that future Link was sent back to?

Yeah, a different universe. I've always thought of that one instance of time travel being different from all the others. Assuming Zelda is the Sage of Time (and even if she's not, she's still the leader), it seems like she'd be able to do that. There is no other Link- future Link getting sent back to a point in time in which the Door of Time should be closed but isn't was actually the entire basis of my argument as to why there needs to be a split (concerning OoT, that is). But then, of course, you pointed out that the Door didn't have to be open for Link to leave and sunk my ship.

V_s said:
They're celebrating child OoT Link, and only the child Link who left Hyrule and ended up in Termina became celebrated as a hero.

But why? What did he do to get recognized as a hero that is never referred to in Ocarina of Time?

V_s said:
I doubt all the races of Hyrule banded together. After all, we're told in TP that Ganondorf invaded Hyrule in its back story. So once again Ganondorf was the attacker, AND he had a bunch of men with him this time. So it's the same situation except that Ganondorf has more men, and he's invading (which is something OoT Ganondorf never did). It just seems like a pretty sizeable difference for the exact opposite expected outcome to occur.

I still think they could've eventually brought Ganondorf down. As far as we know, his pre-Triforce of Power powers were his own thing. He wasn't relying on any sort of super-energy sword or anything, he was just a really powerful warlock. Maybe someone (Nabooru?) tricked him.


Posted by 
Secret_Tunnel
  on: 02/14/11, 04:48:52
It doesn't make much sense for people to celebrate Link coming of age at 13 when the hero in the Adult Timeline is in his late teens.

Here is Wind Waker's prologue.

I've always taken this beginning to show three things. One, Link is riding off on a horse after he beats Ganon. Two, Link appears to be not wielding the Master Sword in that frame (the hilt looks more like the Hero's Sword from Majora's Mask). Three, the Triforce of Courage, which I'm assuming is above Link's head when facing Ganon, is left behind him ("left the land that made him a hero", Triforce of Courage shatters into 8 pieces).

I can't remember exactly, but how does the dual timeline theory explain away the Triforce of Courage? If Zelda sends Link back in time, to another universe, and he keeps the Triforce of Courage how does it split into 8 pieces in Wind Waker if it no longer exists in that timeline?


Posted by 
missypissy
  on: 02/14/11, 05:23:07  - Edited by 
missypissy
  on: 02/14/11, 05:24:56
@missypissy

It splits into 8 pieces when she sends him back in time. The mark could stay on his hand even if he no longer has the Triforce.


Posted by 
Secret_Tunnel
  on: 02/14/11, 06:19:07
Secret_Tunnel said:
There is no other Link-

Yes there is. Have you seen Back to the Future? Do you remember when Marty used the DeLorean to go back to the present in the first movie, and he saw the Libyans shooting at Doc Brown and himself before his past self jumped in the DeLorean and sped away?

There has to exist a Link in the past who hasn't time traveled yet. The only reason this Link "doesn't exist" when Link time travels with the Master Sword is because time is being rewound, so future Link still is that past Link. However, when future Link is sent back in time and time isn't rewound, that means he must appear in a past where there's a Link who hasn't pulled the Master Sword from its pedestal yet. So where is past Link?

Secret_Tunnel said:
But then, of course, you pointed out that the Door didn't have to be open for Link to leave and sunk my ship.

Glad to do my part there.

Secret_Tunnel said:
But why? What did he do to get recognized as a hero that is never referred to in Ocarina of Time?

He presumably showed Zelda the Triforce of Courage and told her what he did as the Hero of Time. Then the Hero of Time legend/prophecy began to be spread around throughout Hyrule until the Hero of Time finally showed up 7 years later.

missypissy said:
It doesn't make much sense for people to celebrate Link coming of age at 13 when the hero in the Adult Timeline is in his late teens.

Like I said, Link's grandmother confirmed that TWW Link is the same age as OoT's child Link. So if TWW Link was 13, then OoT's child Link was 13 and OoT's adult Link was 20. If those are the ages you want to go with, that's fine, but all we know for sure is that TWW Link was the same age as OoT's child Link.

missypissy said:
I can't remember exactly, but how does the dual timeline theory explain away the Triforce of Courage? If Zelda sends Link back in time, to another universe, and he keeps the Triforce of Courage how does it split into 8 pieces in Wind Waker if it no longer exists in that timeline?

Like Secret_Tunnel said, most of the time they just say that the mark on the back of his hand wasn't the Triforce of Courage. I've also heard it theorized that the mark really was the Triforce of Courage, but it was the child timeline's Triforce of Courage. Apparently when future Link went back in time, the Triforce of Courage split into 8 pieces and spread itself throughout Hyrule and then, being the rightful owner of the Triforce of Courage, the Triforce in the child timeline split, with each piece going to each person. Zelda and Ganondorf just got theirs in a bit of a delayed fashion. This argument is usually used by those splitists who believe that TP Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf had pieces of the Triforce during that game rather than just being blessed with the chosen powers of the goddesses.


Posted by 
V_s
  on: 02/14/11, 07:47:51  - Edited by 
V_s
  on: 02/14/11, 07:48:20
The way it played out in Ocarina of Time it seemed pretty heavily implied that the only way a person would have a mark is if they actually had the Triforce piece on them. It didn't seem at all in common with how Twilight Princess or Adventure of Link had it, both of which started out with the mark to signify they were "chosen" where as Link had to "earn" it in Ocarina of Time.

I'm also not entirely sold on the idea that Zelda creates a different universe for Link or that there are multiple Links running around.

At the end of Ocarina of Time, Zelda tells Link "You must lay the Master Sword to rest and close the Door of Time. However, by doing this, the road between times will be closed...Link. Give the Ocarina to me...As a Sage, I can return you to your original time with it. When peace returns to Hyrule...It will be time for us to say good-bye...Now go home, Link, and regain your lost time! Home...where you are supposed to be...the way you are supposed to be."

Then she plays the song, we see all the happy people in happy times, it goes to the Sages on Death Mountain, sky goes weird and then...we go to the Temple of Time, Door of Time is clearly seen open, then we see Link looking at the Master Sword resting and at his hands. Then Navi flies off, we do a close-up of the sword, the bells play. Then Link goes to meet Zelda.

I could be looking at it wrong, but it just doesn't seem like its entertaining the idea of sending him back to a different universe (timeline) to live out his life. With the Door of Time open at the end of the game, it seems like every other "time travel event". It doesn't appear to have created a second Link or a different timeline.


Posted by 
missypissy
  on: 02/14/11, 09:38:17
missypissy said:
The way it played out in Ocarina of Time it seemed pretty heavily implied that the only way a person would have a mark is if they actually had the Triforce piece on them. It didn't seem at all in common with how Twilight Princess or Adventure of Link had it, both of which started out with the mark to signify they were "chosen" where as Link had to "earn" it in Ocarina of Time.

Completely agreed.

missypissy said:
I'm also not entirely sold on the idea that... there are multiple Links running around.

The only way for there to not be more than one Link in the past at the end of the game is if 1) Zelda rewound time rather than just sending Link back in time and de-aging him (which would have erased all of the events of the adult timeline, which would make TWW, PH, and ST "what-if" games rather than events that actually happen in the series), 2) future Link and past Link merged and became the same person upon future Link's arrival in the past (which makes no sense and has never been used in any time travel story I'm aware of), 3) past Link was erased from existence when future Link appeared for whatever reason (but that's saying that past Link was essentially killed because of future Link's arrival), or 4) Zelda sent future Link into an alternate universe where Link was never born, and thus there was no past Link for future Link to replace.

missypissy said:
and then...we go to the Temple of Time, Door of Time is clearly seen open

We never see the Door of Time. All we see is the blue light fading around Link, the Master Sword is already in the pedestal, Navi flies away, and then Link runs off towards and past the camera. The camera zooms in on the Master Sword without following Link. The Door may or may not have been open.

missypissy said:
I could be looking at it wrong, but it just doesn't seem like its entertaining the idea of sending him back to a different universe (timeline) to live out his life.

I still agree with this though. I don't think there was any indication of a split timeline until TWW, and then people needed a way to figure out how Hyrule could possibly be flooded in one game and not flooded in all of the classic games. So rather than just go with the "it becomes unflooded later, or it's a different Hyrule" option, most people went with the split timeline option. Miyamoto and Aonuma, having not planned it either way, heard the split timeline theory. Miyamoto was confused by it, but he just didn't care one way or the other. Aonuma latched onto it and started vaguely spreading that idea around in interviews despite doing nothing to back up that idea in future games (they even specifically made TP so that the events of that game would never be known throughout Hyrule, which, if they had been known, would have more or less destroyed the ability for a single timeline to exist).


Posted by 
V_s
  on: 02/14/11, 19:07:31  - Edited by 
V_s
  on: 02/14/11, 19:08:29
It's a long video, the entire finale, but at 30:31 you see the blue light signalling Link's return and in the background you can see the Door of Time is open. It never shows it again after that point, but with the way Zelda was talking it seems to be a safe bet that it closes behind Link when he runs out of there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EMoemp6F80

I'd mute the whole thing, since you've got a lot of people talking about God knows what throughout it.


Posted by 
missypissy
  on: 02/14/11, 21:37:05  - Edited by 
missypissy
  on: 02/14/11, 21:39:12
^Huh. Don't know how I missed that my last time through. So either it opened upon anticipation of his arrival and shut behind him, or he was sent back to a time after past Link had already opened the Door of Time and was off getting the Silver Gauntlets or something. However, that latter option would have to mean that Zelda came back to the castle after being chased away, and while not impossible, I know we both think it's unlikely.


Posted by 
V_s
  on: 02/14/11, 23:44:25
V_s said:
3) past Link was erased from existence when future Link appeared for whatever reason (but that's saying that past Link was essentially killed because of future Link's arrival), or 4) Zelda sent future Link into an alternate universe where Link was never born, and thus there was no past Link for future Link to replace.

I've always thought of it as a combination of these two. Link gets sent to an alternate universe to a point just before he goes to talk to Zelda for the first time, overwrites that universe's Link, goes to talk to Zelda and gets the opportunity to change that universe's future and live out his life the way he wanted to.


Posted by 
Secret_Tunnel
  on: 02/15/11, 03:38:12
Why would Zelda kill off the past Link though, and how would she do that simply by sending Link back in time, especially when the Song of Storms implies that time travel in OoT is self-consistent?

See, one of my biggest problems with the split timeline theory is that you have to go with the "it just does" explanation. The single timeline, on the other hand, actually has an explanation for how and why everything happens (except for the Master Sword/Ocarina swap out thing, but that's present in the split timeline argument too).


Posted by 
V_s
  on: 02/15/11, 04:20:47  - Edited by 
V_s
  on: 02/15/11, 04:22:29
@V_s

Young Zelda really screws it up, because it seems heavily implied that Link is now in a time before he ever met Zelda. Which would put it after the Great Deku Tree is "saved" by Link but before he makes it into the castle. I was looking over the ending again and one thing really stuck out to me. There are no jewels. Those three you needed to collect in order to open the Door? Totally not there. So I loaded up my file and played a little and it seems to have been a technical issue with the N64, because they don't appear in either the Adult or Young Link scenarios until you run into that room (out of the Master Sword's resting place). But working off the idea of them not being there...

Looking at what Zelda said, it seems to make sense that this is how it would play out. She is deeply sorry that she dragged Link into this and wants to send him back to his life the way it was meant to be. Meaning, before she went in and muddied it up. This is where it gets a little weird, since I'm kind of just thinking of this on the spot. Lucky for me, you are a fan of Lost so it should be easy to understand (just like the show D; )!!!!

What if Link never time travels? What if it's just his consciousness that does? The biggest point for this is that his body is not traveling through time. Like in Back to the Future or Lost, whenever they time travel, whether backwards in both cases or forwards in BttF's, the person traveling time does not age. Marty is the same age in 1955 as he is in 1985. Sawyer is the same age in Dharmaville as he is when the plane crashed. Link does not do this. It seems more like he is jumping between points in time with his consciousness than anything else. Remember when Desmond was going around time in The Constant? He remembered everything from the future, even if it didn't make sense to him since he hadn't physically experienced it. Then remember what happens? He finds out he needs a constant, tracks down Penny in all his jumping-through time, gets her number, and then tells her to wait all those years for his phone call on the exact day? He then jumps back, makes the call, and everything is good?

What if this happens, but more in reverse? We know Young Link can influence Adult Link, the two show connections because Young Link flows straight into Adult Link (timeline wise during the game). What if Adult Link saves the future, Adult Zelda is super sorry and sends his mind back to his Young self before they ever meet, and because of the knowledge he now holds he can influence the future so that it never happens?

Of course this doesn't explain why Young Link is in the Master Sword room if it's just his mind being zapped, especially if he is sent back to before he ever meets Zelda or even opens the door. Mighty big holes to overcome now that I think about it...heh. Kind of fun to just type that out, though.

Also worth looking at Oracle of Ages. Link travels backwards in time in that game but doesn't age because of it. It seems like Ocarina of Time would be the only case, that I've seen of, where the person traveling through time actually ages appropriately to the time period.


Posted by 
missypissy
  on: 02/15/11, 04:28:02
V_s said:
Why would Zelda kill off the past Link though, and how would she do that simply by sending Link back in time, especially when the Song of Storms implies that time travel in OoT is self-consistent?

I wouldn't say that she's killing him so much as giving him the foresight of everything that would have happened had he gone through with Zelda's plan. It's still the same Link, he just knows a little more.

V_s said:
See, one of my biggest problems with the split timeline theory is that you have to go with the "it just does" explanation. The single timeline, on the other hand, actually has an explanation for how and why everything happens (except for the Master Sword/Ocarina swap out thing, but that's present in the split timeline argument too).

Honestly, I won't deny this. One reason why I'm hesitant to accept the single timeline is because Aunoma and Miyamoto both go by the split timeline, and while they haven't screwed up the single timeline yet, it's only a matter of time. The split timeline would also allow for the series to go in a completely different direction in the Adult Timeline (they build a spaceship!!!!) while staying true to its roots in the Child Timeline. I guess there could still be different time periods with the single timeline, but eh.

missypissy said:
Also worth looking at Oracle of Ages. Link travels backwards in time in that game but doesn't age because of it.

If I remember right (which I certainly don't), doesn't Oracle of Ages' time travel make absolutely no sense at all?


Posted by 
Secret_Tunnel
  on: 02/15/11, 04:41:40
I am definitely bookmarking this, but what I've read so far is great. It's made me start replaying Wind Waker.
I love timeline theories. And as much as I know Nintendo does not think about it in detail, I still love theorizing. It'd be great if one day they actually put together a book or something with their "official" thoughts.


Posted by 
MikeD487
  on: 02/15/11, 16:06:37
Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you guys on this thread. Debate on another forum has kind of drained me (missy knows all about that), and free time is limited, but I'll get to it soon (as in "this week" soon).


Posted by 
V_s
  on: 02/22/11, 05:25:53  - Edited by 
V_s
  on: 02/22/11, 05:26:06
So....how does the reference to the fisherman from OoT in TP fits into this timeline? The picture at the fish pond depicts the fisherman with his hat on. Which means it is the Adult setting. Plus, Hena does the same back scratching motion


Posted by 
ChuyMasta
  on: 02/22/11, 07:42:28  - Edited by 
ChuyMasta
  on: 02/22/11, 07:42:49
@ChuyMasta

The guy still would've lost his hair, regardless of meeting Adult Link or not.


Posted by 
Secret_Tunnel
  on: 02/23/11, 01:39:01
grrr


Posted by 
ChuyMasta
  on: 02/24/11, 02:51:16
[ref=id=4575&pagenumber=2#113812]missypissy said:[/ref][quote]Young Zelda really screws it up, because it seems heavily implied that Link is now in a time before he ever met Zelda. Which would put it after the Great Deku Tree is "saved" by Link but before he makes it into the castle. I was looking over the ending again and one thing really stuck out to me. There are no jewels. Those three you needed to collect in order to open the Door? Totally not there. So I loaded up my file and played a little and it seems to have been a technical issue with the N64, because they don't appear in either the Adult or Young Link scenarios until you run into that room (out of the Master Sword's resting place). But working off the idea of them not being there...[/quote]
Well, I guess we could argue that either the N64's ability to render things at a distance, or the shape of the altar could have gotten in the way of the jewels' visibility. After all, from the Pedestal of Time, those stones are nearly impossible to see until you get really close to them. Just check out 6:35 - 6:45 of this video from where Link first returns to the past: [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_zgZ08jhU8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_zgZ08jhU8[/url]

It's still possible that the jewels just weren't there though, and something else caused the Door to be open, I suppose. But regardless of whether they're there or not, we have no idea how long future Link took before going to see past Zelda. All we have to go on is her reaction to young Link's appearance, and considering that she was spying (and therefore likely jumpy regardless), and the fact that future Link clearly had a Triforce crest on his hand this time, Zelda would likely be surprised whether she had met Link before or not.

[ref=id=4575&pagenumber=2#113812]missypissy said:[/ref][quote]Lucky for me, you are a fan of Lost so it should be easy to understand (just like the show D; )!!!![/quote]
Haha! Yeah, I do think it probably helps, especially since LOST uses the same type of time travel as the Song of Storms uses in OoT.

[ref=id=4575&pagenumber=2#113812]missypissy said:[/ref][quote]What if Link never time travels? What if it's just his consciousness that does? The biggest point for this is that his body is not traveling through time...

What if this happens, but more in reverse? We know Young Link can influence Adult Link, the two show connections because Young Link flows straight into Adult Link (timeline wise during the game). What if Adult Link saves the future, Adult Zelda is super sorry and sends his mind back to his Young self before they ever meet, and because of the knowledge he now holds he can influence the future so that it never happens?[/quote]
This is definitely an interesting thought. The only possible problems I can come up for it (in addition to the one you posted) are the facts that, 1) it doesn't tell us what happened to adult Link's body (even when Desmond's consciousness was time jumping, he still had both his future and past body; one just remained comatose while the consciousness was in the other body, and Zelda seemed to suggest that she wanted to send all of Link back in time), and 2) it would mean that child Link definitely changed the future when he went to Termina instead of pulling the Master Sword. So unless Din, Nayru, and Farore can do some MASSIVE course-correction in order for the majority of OoT events to still happen and for OoT Ganondorf to remember fighting the Hero of Time, this would cause either a split timeline scenario or an erasure of the adult timeline events, making TWW, PH, and ST (and any other adult timeline games) merely "what-if" games that ask what the Zelda universe might have been like had Link not erased that future.

[ref=id=4575&pagenumber=2#113812]missypissy said:[/ref][quote]Also worth looking at Oracle of Ages. Link travels backwards in time in that game but doesn't age because of it. It seems like Ocarina of Time would be the only case, that I've seen of, where the person traveling through time actually ages appropriately to the time period.[/quote]
Yeah, I can't think of any other time that time travel has caused someone to revert in age either. I would be surprised if no one has EVER told a time travel story before (OoT possibly excluded) where someone didn't de-age through time travel somehow, but it's certainly not a popular idea as far as I'm aware.

[ref=id=4575&pagenumber=2#113819]Secret_Tunnel said:[/ref][quote]I wouldn't say that she's killing him so much as giving him the foresight of everything that would have happened had he gone through with Zelda's plan. It's still the same Link, he just knows a little more.[/quote]
Then what happened to future Link? He just seems to have evaporated somewhere along the way while his essence remained and enlightened past Link in your theory. Is that right?

[ref=id=4575&pagenumber=2#113819]Secret_Tunnel said:[/ref][quote]Honestly, I won't deny this. One reason why I'm hesitant to accept the single timeline is because Aunoma and Miyamoto both go by the split timeline, and while they haven't screwed up the single timeline yet, it's only a matter of time.[/quote]
True. However, Miyamoto has openly stated that the split timeline confuses him, and it's widely known that the man doesn't care about story in video games (he once said that LA could take place anywhere in the timeline despite the information in the instruction booklet which dictates that the game must take place after ALttP). And this may be my personal opinion, but Aonuma has always struck me as a crowd-pleaser. Or at least one who seeks to be a crowd-pleaser. He tried his hardest with TP to recapture the success of OoT rather than sticking with more original ideas, and he latched onto the split timeline idea when it started to get popular and ran with it. Aonuma seems like such a reactive developer that I'm on the fence about whatever he says regarding the timeline. I still can't forget him saying that TP would take place after TWW, then changing his mind and saying it would take place in between OoT and TWW, and then finally saying that it would take place "parallel" to TWW. Then there's the whole "oldest story" stuff that he said about the Four Swords games, and in his most recent interview he talked about how OoT was the oldest story in the timeline apart from SS. He's just so inconsistent in himself (much less the in-game information), that I just have a hard time trusting his word.

[ref=id=4575&pagenumber=2#113819]Secret_Tunnel said:[/ref][quote][quote=missypissy]Also worth looking at Oracle of Ages. Link travels backwards in time in that game but doesn't age because of it.[/quote]
If I remember right (which I certainly don't), doesn't Oracle of Ages' time travel make absolutely no sense at all?[/quote]
I wouldn't say that it makes no sense at all. In some ways it's a lot like Back to the Future's time travel, only instead of a DeLorean, Link and Veran have time portals that are opened by the Harp of Ages/Nayru. Someone does something in the past, and that alters the future (think Marty running over the pine tree in 1955 when he first time travels, which turns the mall in 1985 from the Twin Pine Mall into the Lone Pine Mall when he makes his way back to the future; similarly, Veran began construction of the Black Tower in the past, and this caused changes in the present). And I imagine that whenever Link appears in the past or present, he always returns to a time he hasn't visited yet, so he never encounters his past self. (I.e., Link begins his journey in the year 1600 at 1:00 PM. Link then uses a portal to jump to the past and ends up in the year 1200 at 3:00 AM. When Link leaves the past at 3:15 AM and returns to the present, it is the year 1600 and it is 1:01 PM. Then when he leaves the present at 1:32 PM and returns to the past, it is the year 1200 at 3:16 AM. So there's never any overlap like there was with Marty (when he traveled back to 1985 and saw himself drive off in the DeLorean for the first time, for example).

[ref=id=4575&pagenumber=2#115986]ChuyMasta said:[/ref][quote]So....how does the reference to the fisherman from OoT in TP fits into this timeline? The picture at the fish pond depicts the fisherman with his hat on. Which means it is the Adult setting. Plus, Hena does the same back scratching motion[/quote]Since it can be argued that the fisherman still owned the hat in the child setting (we just only see him wear it in the adult setting), it doesn't necessarily say much on its own except that TP definitely takes place after OoT (and not that long after it; if the flood takes place in the same timeline as TP, then TP must precede the flood since post-flood no solid knowledge of Old Hyrule seems to be as readily present as the photograph in TP is). Hena would still likely be his descendant regardless of whether a split occurs or not.


Posted by 
V_s
  on: 02/25/11, 07:52:18  - Edited by 
V_s
  on: 02/25/11, 07:53:03
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