Jargon said:

What's your perfect Zelda hybrid?

This.

Yep, that link just loops because what you wrote is awesome and I would hug you in person for it. Well said.

Here's the future. Cheers!

I like a lot the graphics of Wind Waker but i think i would go for the twilight princess look

I honestly do think that Spirit Tracks has a lot of those "uncharted waters" puzzles, though it does of course have moving blocks and hitting switches with boomerangs as well.

I'm surprised you didn't get into combat. You prefer 2D Zelda combat to 3D Zelda combat, right?

Anyway it all looks pretty good. Definitely agree with a more open-ended overworld (they could always point you in the "right" direction while still allowing exploration like LTTP did.) Graphically, I'm kind of hoping to be surprised. I'm not sure what style they could do that would surprise me, but it'd be interesting to get something totally new for the series.

@Zero

I do prefer 2D Zelda combat to 3D Zelda combat, so far. But I don't want 2D combat in the next game, I just want it to be different than what we've already seen so far. So for that category, I don't really have a reference point for what I want. Hopefully Zelda Wii will provide one

This thread needs more zelda crossing.

@Renjaku Maybe I should bring back the article I wrote years ago about an Animal Crossing + Katamari Damacy hybrid...

QFT to everything you said, except maybe for the difficulty of Zelda II. Don't get me wrong, I want the new game to provide a challenge, but there's no need for it to go off the deep end to brutally difficult and frustrating. That's pretty much the only point where I would disagree with you.

I would also like to add, though, that it really wouldn't hurt Nintendo to change
a) The flow of the game. You know, dungeon, item, boss, brief overworld quest, repeat.
b) The setting of the game. We've been in medieval Hyrule/similar places for 20 years now. Let's shake things up.

However, to maintain that familiar Zelda feel, I don't think that Nintendo should change both of these elements at the same time. That would be a drastic and jarring upheaval, and we gamers typically don't respond too well to drastic changes. (Well, at least not initially...)

Thankfully, I think we can rest assured that the new game won't be in Hyrule, since TP was. Or, if it is in Hyrule, hopefully it's in the far distant future, albeit with recognizable elements for us to hearken back to OoT.

Fortunately, Nintendo knows that they need to change things up. All Miyamoto's and Aunoma's comments have implied that, and I think the new Zelda they show on Tuesday is going to be something very special indeed.

I heartily agree with almost everything, except I'd be happy with Twilight Princess-esque puzzle design (maybe with some extra item combination required), and I'm not sure if the storytelling of Ocarina would work in a modern game.

By Ocarina, do you mean that you still want everyone to be mute? Combat in Zelda Wii should definitely be a radical change, but storytelling might also be. There are a lot of places that they could go. Can the series coast on monosyllabic grunts forever?

As far as the actual story, I wouldn't mind seeing a shake-up. Maybe something like an amnesiac Link, finding his place in a strange land, doing oddjobs until some crisis occurs, and he has to fight the good fight (maybe he's the only one who can, since he's not of that world). I guess that's not original, either, but whatever.

The tragic ending could be that he is sucked back into his own universe and separated from Zelda and the rest.

I don't know why I typed that fanfic horseshit.

@anandxxx

Hmm, I guess I've never thought of combat as something that needed a radical retooling. It's really not the central focus, and the way it is it's functional and fun. What exactly would you like to see change with the combat system?

Storytelling is one thing I forgot about though. Twilight Princess, although it had a few highlights, didn't do a good enough job. It needs to be more dynamic and have a greater impact on the player. Or how about something unexpected? Make Zelda a corrupt ruler that Link needs to overthrow, I dunno. Something that grabs us.

@WindWaker
Well, I feel like the shift to 3D has minimized the importance of combat in Metroid, Zelda, AND Mario. I can see why. Combat in 3D space is nowhere near as tight or accessible. Specifically, lock-on has always felt like a bit of a cop-out to me. It removes a lot of the arcade, skill-based feel that the 2D games had, and it prioritizes fighting one-on-one vs. dealing with groups. Now, if every enemy was a Stalfos Knight, or whatever, that would be a fine alternative. But general combat has just become too easy. Due to the damage balancing and decreasing need for strategic play, combat has become a non-factor in the series, an afterthought. It's fun, but it might as well not even be in the game, for how much it affects the gameplay. In Zelda II (and even the original), you had to PAY ATTENTION to each combat encounter, because each one counted. Every enemy was deadly, and hearts were always a precious resource.

So that's one aspect. The other is that Zelda Wii is going to be a flagship MotionPlus title. Obviously, this would require a total overhaul/rethinking of the combat system. There are a lot of ways they could go - locational damage, vertical and horizontal slashing, some sort of extra fidelity to the shield, maybe... I dunno, but I think it's safe to assume that combat will be overhauled, even if simply fixing the damage balance and amping the AI of Twilight Princess could also do the trick. What change would I like to see? Basically, I want each combat encounter to matter. I would like to see a simple, but strategic use of MotionPlus, but it's hard to say how that would manifest itself. Wii Sports Resort swordplay alone isn't going to cut it, but a refined enhancement with more weight and measured strategy might.

Have they done Link and Zelda as childhood friends yet? They could start at their first meeting and skip forward through different parts of their history to get the player more invested in the main quest. That's still kind of fanfic-y, I guess.

I just really hope the events of the world start to affect the inhabitants. In Twilight Princess there was a giant spider crawling up the castle which smashed through a giant forcefield surrounding it and they didnt batter an eyelid. I would have been frikkin terrified.

@anandxxx

Okay, I see what you mean. I wasn't thinking "big picture" enough. I totally agree that combat, if overhauled correctly with WiiMotionPlus, could be substantially more engaging than it currently is. At the same time, they need to be careful to ensure that enemies don't take too long to defeat, otherwise that becomes monotonous.

My perfect Zelda and my perfect Zelda Hybrid are two different things unfortunately. So I'm going to post my perfect Zelda (a post I typed up a while back, so it's no big deal to just copy and paste it, despite its length), and then I'll try to translate that into a shortened answer that fits the hybird question. So here it goes. This is what I'd want in my perfect Zelda:

A huge world that includes Hyrule (you probably wouldn't start the game in Hyrule, and I'm not talking like Ordon Village, I'm talking like Calatia in LoZ's supposed back story), at least one other country, maybe a new dimension or two, and an accessible ocean area that you can sail out to/dive/swim in with some islands. However this huge world has to actually have stuff in it unlike the other 3-D overworlds we've had so far. Let there be more than one town (AoL, an NES game, had 8 of them!). Give us a lot of NPCs that actually do something, have something to say, and mean something to the world. Have these NPCs doing things in the overworld like traveling in between towns and countries, fishing, hunting, being attacked by monsters and thieves, etc. Have the overworld filled with monsters as well. Let there be caves, holes, hidden areas, and all other sorts of secret places hidden in the environment that you really have to search for to find like in LoZ or Metroid Prime (for example, maybe you have to burn some hanging vines to reveal the entrance to one area, or you have to wait for the tide to go down to reveal another). Let the environments be diverse, but also make sense for where they are. Make the world as seamless as possible. Don't cut off the lake, the desert, and the icy mountains from the rest of the world (for example).

"Realistic" graphics a la MM or TP are what I'm leaning towards in terms of graphical style, though looking like a true "next-gen" game. However, the "realistic" look with cel-shading like in the new Prince of Persia game does interest me. If done right, that could make my perfect game. Right now I'm not too picky in terms of the graphics.

A large number of dungeons spread throughout the worlds with it being possible to do most of them in whatever order you find them in (unless you need an item found in a different dungeon to progress in the current dungeon), but they're well hidden and come in all different shapes and sizes (TP took a good step with this one having one dungeon in the mines, another in a ruined mansion, a few in some temples, a couple in palaces, one in a prison, etc.) Not all bosses should stay put in their boss room. Some bosses should even break out of their dungeon altogether once Link has unlocked their Boss Room and the boss will run around in the overworld causing trouble. The bosses shouldn't have glaring weaknesses, the item you found in that dungeon shouldn't necessarily beat them, and they shouldn't attack in patterns only. Make them like fighting really hard versions of regular enemies, but way more powerful. A recurring villain that you fight several times throughout the game wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea either. New puzzles and new spins on old puzzles. I enjoy the "push the block" and "shoot the eye" puzzles as much as everyone else, but they're way too predictable now. Hide the eye under some moss that we have to get rid of, have the block rusted in place until we can figure out how to be able to move it again... Also give us some optional mini-dungeons that are really well hidden (a real Talahint ) and let there be items that aren't required to beat the game be found in these dungeons (and elsewhere in the worlds).

Don't give us a helper in the regular since of the word. If we absolutely need a hint, let there be some way for us to ask for it and get it, but don't give us a helper that is constantly prompting us to ask for help. Give us a way to identify enemies and things of that nature without having their already glaring weakness always pointed out for us. (I still kind of like my idea for having the Book of Mudora or some other magic book be your "helper" for the game with pages that fill themselves in with info on monsters you've fought (as well as other things), and a "hint" page you can turn to if you absolutely need it.) Maybe even give us a difficulty option at the beginning of the game.

I want magic to return, magic bar and all, at least on par with AoL, but in my "perfect" game, it would be even more in-depth than that. Link wouldn't be a mage or anything, but he would balance between using weapons, items, and spells a lot more so than he would now. But make him need magic so that he can survive in the world... Carry bottles filled with potions, but when those run out (or if you're holding something more important in the bottles), you can still cast a spell to heal yourself some, etc. Give us new weapons and items, but also return some of the old, and give old items as many new functions as possible. Bring back something like the Magnetic Gloves, for example, but not only let it move metal balls and cause Link to fly towards or away from certain panels, but let Link strip the armor off of an assailant, run faster in his Iron Boots, pull an enemy's weapon away from him, etc. (oh, and I'd like the ability to pick up an enemy's weapon to return again). EDIT: And no Master Sword beyond lore and lore flashbacks (see two paragraphs down).

Lots of sidequests and optional things to do. Fishing, searching for something (be it bugs, Poes, or whatever), and collecting things (rings/masks/whatever) are all a must. I'd also like a bustling city that featured a series of tournaments, be they in sword fighting, magic, or whatever. Make the majority of the NPCs real people with "real" lives (or at least lives on a schedule) like in MM, and make me care about them, and include sidequests where I can help them and reap the rewards from them. Include special precursor quests for some of the dungeons.

Have lore spread throughout the lands for me to find like in the Metroid Prime series. Don't make it necessary to find in order to understand the story, but allow it to give me some insight into the worlds' pasts (and include a hidden library somewhere). Let some select pieces of lore show me cutscenes of what they are describing rather than just making me read it all and have to simply imagine everything. (And make some of this lore playable. For example, a piece of lore talks about the original Fierce Deity fighting the monster Majora before it was turned into Majora's Mask? Let me play that short little scene/battle just for the fun of it.)

Include various animal partners in the game. Don't make them too integral to the game, but make them like Epona in OoT. She was completely optional, but getting her gave you a few advantages. Let there be several different animals in this game that I can partner up with/ride across the lands on with different advantages and disadvantages to each (and items and equipment to be used on each animal to diminish some of these disadvantages).

Allow me the ability to play around as members of different races. MM and PH gave me very fun experiences controlling races other than Hylians (TWW's experience needed a little work). Even if I can only control them in optional dungeons, that's fine. I don't want the same mechanic from MM to return in full, but I do want to be able to see the world through the eyes of the various races of Hyrule since I already know what a handful of them are capable of.

Bring back songs that do something in the game. I get tired of having to wait on time to change, and it gets annoying having to change into a wolf in order to warp somewhere, so bring back the songs. These were some of the most memorable parts of OoT, MM, and TWW anyway. Bring back an instrument (maybe several instruments, though I'm not sure if the different instruments would have different effects or be merely an aesthetic choice for the player (or produce slightly different sounds like in MM)) and give us some new songs with interesting effects. I wouldn't mind if a few of the old songs returned (Song of Storms, maybe?), but I would like mostly new ones.

Give us some serious themes like morality, life, and death in this game. Have Wanted signs posted throughout Hyrule Castle Town advertising criminals and monsters that they want caught. Have NPCs lose loved ones and grieve over it. Have NPCs give birth and be happy about it. Have the knights be the ultra strict soldiers of OoT rather than the haphazard, scared group that we saw in TP (or at least have most of the knights in this mindset; having one or two scared knights in the minority might be a nice bit of comedic relief) so if we break a minor law in order for the overall good of our quest, it still puts us on the bad side of the knights. But also let there be a theme of exploration. Don't give us all the answers. Don't even give the NPCs all the answers, but just bits and pieces (so talking to one might give us a clue, but we'd have to find something else to really know where to look).

Multiplayer might be a nice option (online and off), but it is in no way necessary to the experience. I don't want multiplayer to be the only way I can get certain things. It has to be an option only. Maybe allow me to fight in the aforementioned tournaments with someone, or go explore a randomly generated multiplayer dungeon with a friend. Keep it on the minimum, but include it if it can be fun.

If done right, 1:1 sword controls sounds tempting, but using 1:1 with items like the boomerang, grappling hook, etc. sounds less than appealing. I'm perfectly content with a button-mashing experience, but if motion controls can be done right, I'm all for them. (I enjoyed 99% of the motion controls in MP: Corruption, so I could see myself enjoying a mostly motion-controlled Zelda.)

Give us a wide range of special skills to learn and use (sword and maybe acrobatic as well). Make combat challenging, but not frustratingly so. Make the shield usage on par with AoL. That's what made the combat the deepest in the series in that game. Find some way to make it work in this Zelda game too. Again, minimize the obvious weakspots, and encourage us to use other items than just our sword against these enemies.

Give us mostly new characters, but bring back a few of the old, obscure ones for nostalgia's sake. I want to see Ralph, Sokra, Error, and Syrup in 3-D. Don't include Ganondorf unless we see him in a way we haven't yet. For example, maybe he's a teenager in this game, and therefore not the main evil. Maybe it's a new Ganondorf who simply isn't evil. Maybe he is the main evil at first with a new, interesting motive, but he is killed/sealed away relatively early in the game to give way to a new evil (who is largely unconnected to Ganon in any way). Same goes for Zelda. Obviously her name is in the title of every game, so she has to be at least mentioned (in the two games she doesn't play a decent-sized role in, she is still either shown in a flashback or mentioned). Set the game after AoL and show us two Zeldas both after Hyrule's throne, or have it so Zelda died recently and one of Link's goals before the game is over is to go to the realm of the dead and try to save her, or else just show us a kingdom that is falling apart after Princess Zelda was called away on some urgent business and is being kept from returning home (see, she's just mentioned, but doesn't actually appear in the game (unless she shows up at the end of the credits to a Hyrule that peace has returned to)). Keep Link as the main character, but don't give him the same farm boy origins he's had. Make him an Aladdin, stealing to survive... A knight in training waiting for the return of the princess... The heir to the throne of the foreign land you start off in... A member of a gang that just recently got a new member who is slowly corrupting the group and talking them into doing despicable things that they would have never done before with Link breaking off from the group to stop them once they threaten the land... Give Link amnesia if it helps, and have him slowly recover his memory if that gives us a solid plot.

Show us all sorts of different races. Give us the classics, some of the obscure races from other games (what does a Zuna or Tokay look like in 3-D?), and a few new ones. And if the Hylian NPCs are going to be traveling across the overworld, have NPCs of other races be doing the same things. Let the races intermingle and show an interconnectedness amongst themselves while also showing their differences. Some may disagree with me here, but I'd like to see a little racism as well. It would make the world more believable. Have one town feature a bar that has a sign out front saying "No Gorons Allowed!!" Have a Zora refuse to give Link the key to a dungeon because he's a disrespectful Hylian until Link manages to save a Zora's life who then vouches for him to the stubborn Zora. I obviously don't want anything over the top in this department, but show us the differences between these races. Show us the different religions of the different races and how they make each respective race what they are.

Give us a new story which is surprising, deep, complex (but not complicated), lacking plotholes (there's a big wish ), and if it has to have a twist ending don't let it be predictable or similar to something we've already seen (I'm looking at LA/PH's ending here as well as the identity reveals in OoT/TWW/TP). Don't leave us with an open ending. Answer all of the questions by the end of the game unless they're definitely going to give us a sequel (very few Zeldas have managed to do this). Don't give us alternate endings unless the endings are simply added on to each other (by "added on to each other" I mean if you do something in the game or complete with such a percentage, you'll get the shortest ending; do something else or get a higher percent and you'll get the previous ending plus a little bit extra, similar to the Metroid Prime series; it's the same ending, but it could be considered alternate because you do get "different" endings depending upon how much you do in the game). Allow the story to fit in with the previous games without complicating things needlessly.

Voice acting is something I'm not crazy about, but I do agree that it would add to the series. However, there are two things about VA that I would have to have in my "perfect" game. First of all either everyone would get voice acting (that includes Link, though he wouldn't be saying much) or no one would. Second, I think I would prefer it if no one spoke English. It just doesn't make sense to me and doesn't seem like it would feel right to me. Give everyone the Midna treatment. Text is a necessity in this game regardless just so I can confirm what the characters are saying even if they are all speaking English. If there's going to be text in the game regardless, then it doesn't make sense to me to have the characters speak English (unless Link has to find a Jabber Nut or something early in the game like in TMC which allows him to understand what everyone is saying, which would also mean that the player would understand what everyone was saying... if that happened, I would be okay with English, I guess, but I would definitely prefer most of the races to have a distinct accent to differentiate and show that they're not all speaking the same language as everyone else).

Have Rupees mean something in this game. If they're going to be as easy to find as they are in TP (and considering all of the sidequests and mini-games I expect to be in this game, I would imagine Rupees won't be sparse by any means), then they should be used for something... Toll bridges, sidequests, fortune tellers (I want to need hints in this game ), potion shops, items and weapons that can only be bought... This would also mean that there would have to be a severe limit towards finding items in the overworld... Hearts would only appear by defeating enemies, arrows and bombs would very rarely appear in grass, etc. So you would really need to spend these Rupees in towns to heal and get the bombs and arrows you need to defeat monsters and progress through dungeons.

Don't have time match real-life time, but set some events to time, so that it has to be morning before a certain fish appears, or there has to be a full moon in the sky before a certain dungeon will open up. Obviously there is some time control mechanism by way of song, but I don't expect to be able to pinpoint this time control any more than what I could do in MM. Set most of the NPCs on a weekly schedule or something, but also have some one-time only happenings in the game depending on what day it is or whatever (e.g. I don't expect the pregnant NPC to give birth every Friday, but maybe on Day 15 she gives birth, and from then on out she can be seen carrying her baby around town as she goes about her schedule). Just don't prohibit something important from happening because you didn't know about it before the one-time-only event happened. But show time throughout the world. If I plant a Magic Bean, let it have grown into a full plant a few days later. Let it rain and fog up on a fairly regular basis, and let me see the wet grass and the dew still clinging to the leaves the next day before it dries up. Let me see flowers slowly budding over the week and then flowering days later. (So put the NPCs on a weekly schedule, but put the environment and a few NPC events on a larger scale schedule.)

As for music, orchestrated stuff definitely sounds better than MIDI to me, but not so much so that I would have to make the change for the game to be perfect. Each one has its advantage. As for the music itself, I'd want new stuff mixed with old stuff mixed with remixes of old stuff. Maybe even throw in a few medleys.

And I think that's all I've got.

Overworld - Adventure of Link (but 3-D, fully explorable, and full of hidden places like in LoZ or ALttP)
Art style - Something similar to Majora's Mask or Twilight Princess
Dungeon premise - Twilight Princess (I loved how not every dungeon was a temple or palace, and several were unique locales like an abandoned home) and Legend of Zelda (I like the idea of just stumbling across the next dungeon somewhere out in the overworld)
Dungeon design - Something unique, but I suppose ALttP and TMC had dungeon designs I really liked that would be similar
The Helper of LoZ through LA (i.e. none to limited)
Magic of AoL
Item Inventiveness of the Oracles
Sidequests of Majora's Mask
Lore pacing of TMC
Songs of OoT/MM/TWW
Combat of AoL mixed with TMC but in 3-D
Difficulty of AoL (I disagree with the poster who said AoL was too difficult; it was just right, IMO; LoZ's 2nd Quest was too difficult)
Ability to utilize characters of different races in a limited capacity (a la MM or PH)

And all of that only covers about 1/2 or 3/4 of my long-winded post above.

@V_s Good stuff. Very good stuff. Even half of those ideas in the new game would be great.

Although as far as difficulty goes I'd be happy with ALttP level. Dificult enough to die a few times and make the bosses challenging but still doable. Unlike AoL :P

I agree with what someone said above about the inhabitants of the world caring what's happening around them. I really wanna see a more Majora's Mask approach to the NPCs.

And I'll say it again, but less eloquently because I don't have time to write it,

I want a full forest dammit! All real trees. All seamless. Huge enough to actually get lost in (hence Lost Woods). With grottos and caves, maybe a dungeon in the treetops, and a large river/gorge in the middle that if followed (flow-wise) would lead me to Lake Hylia or the equivalent (perhaps the ocean). That'd be great. No more of this walled-woods crap. Please Nintendo!

You know what would be awesome? A 150-200 Hour game with all of the bosses we've encountered before!

And theres nothing saying that the game needs to be 2-3 discs for it to be long. I've easily logged 70 hours on games that are the same length as "20 hour" games. Cripes, how long did Final Fantasy III (VI) take you guys? It took me forever..because that game is AWESOME. Or maybe it COULD be 2 discs, at a slightly higher price point? Who wouldn't pay 70 bucks for a [good] 150-200 hour Zelda game? You'll be playing that one for a while!


For the record, Jargon's deal is pretty good. I'm not as fan of cel shading for Zelda as everyone else is. I really don't like Twilight Princess' stuff either though. I guess Ocarina of Time / Majora's Mask was the best for me? I mean, they can't go back to Legend of Zelda / Adventure of Link / Link to the Past, can they? I want more color in my Zelda games. I don't know how they can go from ultra colorful cartoon Wind Waker to lifelike, drab Twilight Princess. Well, I get that they were looking to do something different.

Alright, I don't know what I want. Actually, what I do want is a new top-down Zelda game on WiiWare.
--No! I'm not getting handheld stuff!

@Jargon
great post. truly!

@anandxxx

No, I don't mean that it should be mute, whether you mean lack of text or lack of voice acting. I'm fine with voice acting in cutscenes. But I don't want the game to be dialogue heavy and especially don't want a lot of exposition. I thought Twilight Princess's plot was convoluted and ultimately forgettable. Wind Waker too, though not to the same extent. Ocarina of Time took something inherently awesome (time travel) and made a simple, but powerful story that was memorable for it's execution more than it's subject matter. That's what I think video games do best.

I guess Ocarina did have a Super Metroid-esque quality about it, especially in the big moments. I almost think the lack of dialogue contributed to that sort of ethereal, experiential feeling, like in Ico. It would probably lose a lot of the magic if Navi was like "Wow, Link! Look at that! Everything's all withered!"

Even if it would be jarring to see a modern game forego voice acting, I wouldn't mind, honestly. It seems like it's almost part of that classic Nintendo atmosphere. Plus, Lost Planet 2 has just showed me the potential perils of going the other way.

@anandxxx

Yea, I especially don't want voice acting just when talking to village people and such, because they always say silly things that I enjoy reading but would not come off naturally at all being spoken. I think they'll probably have voice acting in cutscenes, but I hope that means they keep the talking to the minimum. I really don't think Twilight Princess would have worked with voice acting.