This is an ongoing discussion between me and ... Zero. I thought I'd continue it here, so others could jump in if they were interested in any of the topics. It would be kind of confusing to post my response without any context, so I'm including his last response. Without any context. See if you can figure out what we were talking about. It'll be fun. Like Memento.
Except fun.
ZERO
Left 4 Dead is pretty cool, but I'm not sure I'd buy it. For one, it's really about the co-op, so unless you are going to be playing with someone it seems to lose the appeal. But the big kicker is... there are only 4 scenarios, and I made it through the first in about an hour. From what I've read the rest aren't much longer. On the plus side it is a VERY intense game, the hordes come at you fast enough to even make 28 Days Later look tame. On the minus side well... I dunno... they did this thing where the game weighs a bunch of variables to determine what enemies, and how many, etc. appear. Which is cool in theory, but it makes it feel like you're just fighting the same enemies over and over without any real game design involved. It probably would make for more interesting replayability though. Which it needs, with only 4 scenerios. Still, it's fun, and I like playing it ... just couldn't see spending $60 on it.
Wow, you did buy a LOT. No wonder you have so many unopened games. And I thought my recent lack of self control was bad. You may need an intervention man. I think I'm pretty set for the holidays unless some amazing deal comes up... LittleBigPlanet alone is sapping a lot of my free time. I'll probably get another DS game around Christmas, but that is about it. Oh, and downloadables on the Wii and PSN... they don't count against me, do they?
Hmm, I guess you bring up the question... does "good for the industry" really deserve higher scores? My opinion is always that when it comes to an actual score you leave the politics behind. I always hate when IGN knocks a score down just to prove a point, like in the middle of a franchise which has done the same thing for game after game and got decent scores they will just be like "enough is enough!" and trash it with a low score. Of course, the more unique a game, the more it stands out, the more of an "experience" it becomes to jaded gamers like myself, so it probably deserves a bit more for that. No reviews can truly exist in a void.
Of course at the time I hated that Nintendo "lost" Rareware because without a doubt they were my second favorite developer at the time (albeit, some would say N64-only owners had no other choices for favorites.) But I don't think there has been a single Rareware game in the years since that I feel like I truly missed out on... Viva Pinata is the only one I actually want to check out even. Then again, it begs the question... did Nintendo dump them because they saw them going downhill, or did they go downhill because Nintendo dumped them? Working hand in hand with Nintendo can bring out amazing results that I severely doubt working hand in hand with Microsoft can. People point to Starfox Adventures to "prove" that Rareware had already lost it at that point, but I dunno... that's one game. Perhaps we will never know, but I can't say I feel like I miss them too much. Silicon Knights is another, though I wasn't a HUGE Eternal Darkness fan and the only other thing they really did was a passable but not much else port of Metal Gear Solid which managed to look worse on the Gamecube than the PS2 Metal Gear Solid 2 did.
Well, it is tough to call the limit on the expanded audience, but I think a part of it is just the fact that the options for the various types of non-games seem somewhat limited. In a recent interview with Miyamoto someone said something like... you have done sports, fitness, and now music... what else is left? And Miyamoto seemed to agree that it's tough to find a lot of sort of everyday interests to turn into non-games. Once you get past the few universal topics then you really have to start digging. And it seems Wii Music may be underperforming... possibly because it's just being poorly accepted/reviewed, but maybe the "non-gamer" just doesn't have as much interest in music games? Then again, they seem to love Guitar Hero.
It does seem odd to me that the Wii is taking so much flack with the TRU GAMERZ nowadays. At launch it had a pretty positive vibe. And it may have slow times, but come on... it's cheap and offers types of games not found elsewhere. But that's just the way some people are. I haven't played my Wii since Brawl, blah blah blah. It's a different type of gamer, I suppose. People like us will look at more unique looking B titles over more standard genre fare A titles, but to those who don't well... the Wii lineup IS kind of weak.
I do think a fair amount of PS2 owners went Wii and some probably still are (especially in Japan) but I think the more Nintendo gets this image of having a console without games to support it, the more PS2 owners may look elsewhere when they finally decide to jump into this generation. I'd say the Wii is closer to the PS2 than the 360 or PS3 are, but... none of them really match the vast library of AAA titles the PS2 had.
I actually question how many "non-gamers" there even are truly buying Wiis and Wii software. You say you wonder why Nintendo hasn't abandoned "us," but I would be willing to bet a large portion of Wii owners are "us." Everyone talks about the soccer moms buying Wiis but I dunno... I have a huge family and none of the moms bought a Wii. It's just me and my one group of cousins who have one... and they are Gamecube/N64/etc. owners. And I can't imagine the soccer moms really wanting Brawl or Galaxy, and maybe even few wanting Kart... but all of those sold amazingly. Actually there is your answer right there, why would Nintendo abandon a fanbase that (in my eyes) is making Brawl, Kart and Galaxy not just million sellers, but (by the end of the gen) possibly 10 million sellers? Well, in general you spread out to the widest market possible, and that is what Nintendo is doing. Wii Fit might sell very well with minimal effort involved (though probably more than most think) but can you really go a generation with 10+ Wii Fit type games all selling in the multimillions? I think not. Nintendo knows, however, they can appeal to us and them and thereby get their many, many million seller games this generation.
I think franchise sales probably do, in general, decrease each iteration and increase a bit over the last with the first new game every generation. Still though, Prime 3 has sold close to 1.5 million worldwide. Only on the WiiGB would a 1.5 million seller be used to prove a hardcore market DOESN'T exist.
Pikmin sold, I think, 1.5 million and Pikmin 2, longterm, ended up selling over a million. People don't realize that though because the first week sales didn't *quite* add up and everyone freaked out and called it a disappointment, but Nintendo franchises tend to have some legs. Keep in mind though, without new franchises there would be no Animal Crossing, Wii Sports, or Wii Fit. Or Brain Age. Or Professor Layton for that matter (Level 5 developed but Nintendo published) which sells a few million in Japan every iteration. Even Smash Brothers is a somewhat new franchise, end of the 64 era. You need to take some risks to find that franchise that turns into a mega success, and Nintendo is in the lucky position where most of their "risks" sell a million copies, and the ones that really pan out sell 5-10 million. More than that though is just diminishing returns if you don't keep trying new stuff. I think that, more than anything else, is what led to the dropoff in the Gamecube era... a lot of people were like ok it's a neat machine but what does it offer that the N64 didn't? And we see that with the Wii haters as well, though they do have a point... outside the Wii *something* titles has Nintendo really done much new and innovative on the Wii? If they want to win over the haters they need more than just their old franchises with a new twist. Besides, a lot of their staples don't actually sell a TON... F-Zero and Fire Emblem come to mind. New franchises can easily outperform these two (not that I want them to stop those series, love both of them, but it wouldn't hurt to have a break from them to try something new.)
It does seem interesting that Kirby and Donkey Kong became the branch out characters. I wonder if a part of that, though, is just that Nintendo didn't feel like working on a full platformer with them? Focus on Mario instead? Especially Donkey Kong... the WiiGBs obsession with Country aside, I'm not exactly sure what a new "traditional" Donkey Kong platformer could add that Mario couldn't do better. Maybe the rope swinging.
Hmm, actually your comment on Iron Man reminds me of another reason why I think Nintendo will keep making games for "us." Their teams have to be happy when a game like Galaxy comes out and debuts to awesome reviews and sales, regardless of whether something like Wii Fit is a better financial success overall. After all, we do have to remember that Nintendo are individuals, and probably an awful lot of them would prefer to work on games like Galaxy over Fit and the likes. If Nintendo doesn't keep making the gamer games, they may find a lot of their employees slipping away elsewhere... not good for business longterm.
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